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What started it

February 20, 2013

I just read the letter (Feb. 11, 2013) from Dorothy Koontz, Howard’s mom, and I’m so glad to see that somebody agrees with me about the Bible, and this country being built on the Bible....

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(56)

WKnapp

Feb-21-13 4:48 PM

wwhickok

Feb-20-13 9:40 AM

Sure people like Abraham Lincoln came along and paid the ultimate price for his fight against such cruelty... As far as the arguement that it was founded on ideals, not religion..again..my point about slavery.

Abraham Lincoln was NOT an abolitionist, nor did he burn with any desire to free the slaves. He was a tyrant who wanted to lock up his political opponents and keep power fo himself. Typical politician. No hero, no martyr, no 'Great Emancipator'. The line about 'Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness' was originally 'Life, Liberty and Property'. High ideals, huh?

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MrShaman

Feb-21-13 12:13 PM

"I agree that public schools should not be a place to indocrinate children into atheism, but that's what's happening. Ask any atheist and if he's honest (very few are) they'll tell you they are atheists because of what they were taught in school. That's what happened to me and it took years before I found that I had been lied to." - enigma

*

You missed your "calling".

You should be a scriptwriter for the 700 Club....or, any OTHER variation of soap-operas.

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CMReeder

Feb-21-13 9:08 AM

Sorry in a muddle this morning ( I know it's every morning!) It should read Know not No.

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CMReeder

Feb-21-13 9:06 AM

No why things changed USABorn it isn't because of prayer being eliminated it is because non Christian religions did not want their children subjected to Christian religion in the classroom.

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JerryfromRI

Feb-21-13 7:22 AM

@USABORN

"I rarely agree with Jerry, but in this instance he is correct, UNFORTUNATELY!"

It is UNFORTUNATE that you rarely agree with me.

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USABorn

Feb-21-13 6:24 AM

Every classroom had a Christmas tree and a party on the last day of school before Christmas vacation. We made Easter baskets in art class, and colored eggs in homeroom to put in them. We did things like make cranberry sauce for Thanksgiving. We even said grace before we ate lunch each day.

No law suits, NO screaming parents, NO kids suing over the 10 Commandments which was posted in every classroom.

Parents made sure we did our homework, and were known to paddle butts.

Never heard of drug addicts or pedophiles!

How far we have fallen!

Sorry, a little off subject, but couldn't resist!

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USABorn

Feb-21-13 6:14 AM

I rarely agree with Jerry, but in this instance he is correct, UNFORTUNATELY!

If prayer and the Bible are allowed to return to the classrooms, that must include ALL religions. Satanism, wiccan, muslim,, etc. OR it would end up in the Supreme court which would have to either DENY this return of religion to the schoolrooms, OR require ALL to be allowed access. Is this truly what you want?

I spent 12 years in my school, first pledging allegiance to the flag of the U.S., then listening to 10 verses of the Bible every day (after learning to read, the students actually read the verses) followed by the Lord's Prayer.

cont'd

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JerryfromRI

Feb-20-13 6:19 PM

"What we need to do is try, don't know if it will happen, to get the Bible back in the schools and in the hands of the government and get this country back on the right track."

Are we going to teach all the religions in the schools? Just some? Who get to pick? Who decides if we are teaching it correctly?

All the religions in government? Just some? Who get to pick? Is someone breaking the law if they pray wrong?

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DavidBross

Feb-20-13 4:52 PM

A look at the 1950s will show that the US described in the letter existed for some people in some places. For other people, sometimes in those same places, life wasn't nearly so pleasant.

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enigma

Feb-20-13 4:46 PM

CHayes,"Our public school system does not and should not be used as a tool for religious indoctrination. In the US, we have schools not madrasas. If you want to send you kids to a madrasa, then pay for it on your own dime."

I agree that public schools should not be a place to indocrinate children into atheism, but that's what's happening. Ask any atheist and if he's honest (very few are) they'll tell you they are atheists because of what they were taught in school. That's what happened to me and it took years before I found that I had been lied to. I object to my tax dollars going to that indoctrination. I agree that if you want your children to be indoctrinated into the religion of atheism, that you should do it on your own dime. Of course CHayes will say that his belief is true and therefor should be taught in school. He only believed it because that what he was taught. He has no other reason to believe it. He cannot prove it, nor can anyone else. Sounds like a fairy tale

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CHayes

Feb-20-13 4:28 PM

"I understand the 'low tolerance for atheists', Christians see them as someone who 'aggressively opposes their religion'"

Because someone doesn't believe in fairy tales doesn't mean they believe that you shouldn't have the right to believe in fairy tales. It simply means they believe it has a place (like your home, and your church), and that place is NOT in our laws. Our public school system does not and should not be used as a tool for religious indoctrination. In the US, we have schools not madrasas. If you want to send you kids to a madrasa, then pay for it on your own dime.

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CHayes

Feb-20-13 4:21 PM

"What happened that brought this country to the state that's it's in and to the parents who fear for their children in school is when Madeline Murray O'Hare had the Bible taken out of the schools back in the 60s"

The Bible was 'taken out of the schools"? Really? I don't know of a school where a student can't bring a Bible into school if they chose to do so.

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Tgrammiex4

Feb-20-13 11:24 AM

Wow MrShaman, your last 2 posts are very telling....explains alot.

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 11:24 AM

"I saw my mother have to work to support us as she divorced and our Dad never paid a dime of support. She was too proud to get welfare." - Tgrammiex4

*

BEEN there...and, it was 1958...when there were VERY-few resources (available) for women who lacked the "good sense" to get remarried!!!

You're "preachin'" to the "choir".

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 11:20 AM

"There's no need. I'm sure you have better things to do, with your time." -- Sham

Actually, I have a pretty boring job..I've got nothing but time ;)

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 11:18 AM

"MrShaman, I have been around for the last 50 years and i have seen the progress. I have also seen the days where my Grandmother was able to be a housewife cause Grandpa made enough to support a family." - Tgrammiex4

*

I understand all that. There have ALSO been many instances, where...upon retirement...such people have gotten DIVORCED, 'cause...after alllllll those years of work & housekeeping...they realized they didn't (even) KNOW each-other...and, stayed-together, all those years (only) because they were expected-to!!

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 11:07 AM

"If you don't believe the spiral began in the '60's you are crazy. It was the hypocrisy of adult behavior. People remaining together was no longer necessary." - spike2

*

Yeah...whatta "drag"...when women FINALLY understood they had NO obligation to tolerate an abusive-relationship/marriage.

How "devastating" that had to be....for those men who'd always relied on the "absolutes", of the Patriarchy, to keep "the wife" in-line.

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 10:55 AM

"Shaman...sometimes...i worry about you." - wwhickok

*

There's no need. I'm sure you have better things to do, with your time.

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 10:50 AM

"For me personally, I understand the 'low tolerance for atheists', Christians see them as someone who 'aggressively opposes their religion'." - wwhickok

*

Maybe "Christians" need to get-OVER their need to see themselves as "martyrs". Their constant-whining over being "picked-on" (by atheists) gets extremely tiring.

If "Christians" put a little MORE effort into being "known, by their works"...and, a little LESS time in legislating their BELIEFS...Life would be a whole-lot-less complicated for EVERYONE, involved!

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Tgrammiex4

Feb-20-13 10:43 AM

MrShaman, I have been around for the last 50 years and i have seen the progress.I have also seen the days where my Grandmother was able to be a housewife cause Grandpa made enough to support a family.I saw my mother have to work to support us as she divorced and our Dad never paid a dime of support.She was too proud to get welfare.I saw the cost of living rise when I was a young adult and it took 2 of us working to keep a roof over our heads and our kids clothed & fed.Although modern technology is supposed to save time, it actually takes time. How many hours a day do we spend on the phone, computer, tv, video games?No wonder we have child obesity(adult for that matter)

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 10:37 AM

"First false statement in the letter was this nation was built on the Bible. It wasn't. It was built on freedom, blood, and ideals." - CMReeder

*

...AND, freedom from (what was considered) the "established"-religion in The Old Country!!!

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 10:33 AM

"Good old enigma don't look back to 50's then recite how the conservatives did all the freeing and civil rights then ignore how they turn back on all those efforts because they decided that winning was more important than civil rights." - CMReeder

*

...Especially when a BULK of the "winning" was on the "conservatives"' side-o'-the-tracks.

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MrShaman

Feb-20-13 10:28 AM

"Progress isn't always a good thing. As much as we enjoy all the technology, medical advancements etc. it has come at a cost. In our quest to have bigger, better, more, faster we have lost a lot of the more important things. Time for family, teaching our children,taking the time to know and care about our neighbors and investing time and caring into our communities." - Tgrammiex4

*

I'm guessing you're much-too-young to have (actually) EXPERIENCED the "push" for Progress (that'd happened, over the last 40-50 years). The whole POINT of Progress, was...to give people more TIME to pursue "family, teaching our children,taking the time to know and care about our neighbors and investing time and caring into our communities."

If a majority, of Americans, have become too LAZY to take-advantage of those opportunities, our present-situation can hardly be blamed on Progress.

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spike2

Feb-20-13 10:13 AM

all. (the missing last word)

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spike2

Feb-20-13 10:10 AM

Enigma - you don't get it? The Bible and morality can go hand in hand but it is possible to have morality or basic decency without being "religious". You are simply wrong. The availability and acceptability of divorce became prevalent. No onus of duration existed on either party. The "shame" of affairs and so forth lessened, just as having a child outside of a marriage has. If you don't believe the spiral began in the '60's you are crazy. It was the hypocrisy of adult behavior. People remaining together was no longer necessary. As actual demand for laboring at home outside of the job diminished through a beginning of technological advancement, survival did not dictate couples working in consort. Free time was plentiful and available. Be honest, people started screwing up. There are innumerable factors in the breakdown of the family unit. Believing the Christian Bible is the begin all and end all for social structure is simply stupid. You are applying one size fits

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