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What started it

February 20, 2013

I just read the letter (Feb. 11, 2013) from Dorothy Koontz, Howard’s mom, and I’m so glad to see that somebody agrees with me about the Bible, and this country being built on the Bible....

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(56)

andy33

Feb-20-13 1:25 AM

This country took a nose dive when parents decided not to parent...the family structure was broken when it was more important to have extra income..mothers left the home...everyone had to have more stuff, a better car [actually more cars], more cell phones >>> keeping up with the Kardashians Syndrome. As long as stuff is more important than people, a million Bibles in schools won't make any difference.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 6:22 AM

"And as far as punishing children and not allowed to spank them, that's wrong. A swat across the behind, not a beating, once in a while doesn't hurt any kid. And as far as a time out, that doesn't always work. I had a few swats when I grew up, and it didn't hurt me."

Timeout's don't work? Says who? Raise your children to respect their elders, to know right from wrong. I'm not going to sit here and tell a parent how to raise their kid, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a swat on the bottom, but don't say other methods don't work. Maybe it's just that you don't have enough patience to let it work.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Feb-20-13 6:23 AM

Parents need to take a more active role in teaching their children the Bible and prayer at home and turning off the TV, PC, and smartphone. It has to start there.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 6:25 AM

"What we need to do is try, don't know if it will happen, to get the Bible back in the schools and in the hands of the government and get this country back on the right track."

You're wrong. I've said this before and I'll say it again. This country is far too diverse to make laws or education based upon 'one religion'.

"Look how people respected everybody, property and everybody got along. And if somebody was really down and out, and if they lost a home due to a fire, flood, etc., people would pitch in and give them the shirt off their backs like back in the 50s."

You mean when White's still owned blacks? When Black people weren't allowed to pee in the same urinal or drink out of the same fountain?

You mean when Hippies picked Vietnam? (Not dissing hippies, just making a point)

That entire statement about respect is pure ignorance.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 6:26 AM

It's not necessarily the bible parents need to teach their children. It's right from wrong, respect, good morals.

You don't have to be 'Christian' to be a good person.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 6:28 AM

The Country, imo, did not go downhill when the Bible was taken out of schools. That occurred because of the diversity in this country, in schools. The problems started when drugs became a bigger issue, when government started shutting down Mental Health Facilities, and when the government started handing guns out to murderous populations and attempting to take them away from the ones who have them solely as a sport or defense mechanism, who aren't out killing someone.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 6:32 AM

I grow so tired of hearing people scream "We need the bible", "Without the bible there is nothing", "Good People can only be Christian", "The problem is the lack of the bible".

One of the biggest problems in this country is the lack of respect for diversity. The lack of acceptance for anything different. And the IGNORANCE of where the real issues are. Government, having nothing to do with the bible, is a very large part of the problem. Laws should NEVER be made based on religion, NEVER. There are too many different cultures in this country. Schools are about educating people for careers and basic necessities of life.

You want a 'minister' section of schools, ask churches to pay for an extra wing on every school; put the christians who wanna learn about the bible in there.. Segregate them..you know..like those "christians" did in the 50's to black people. /sarcasm

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enigma

Feb-20-13 6:52 AM

wwhickok, You've been listening to too many liberals talk about the 50's and Christianity. It was Christians who fought to free the slaves and Christians who fought to give minorities equal rights. It was liberal Democrats who for years fought against civil rights for blacks. That's not to say that every Christian agreed, but the Bible only speaks of the human race and does not recognize races within it. There is no black race or yellow race or red race or white race, there is only the human race. If everyone believed that, all of this race stuff would go away and we could discuss what matters.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 7:00 AM

Enigma, to an extent that may be true, maybe. But to an extent, it's definitely not. Are you telling me there isn't a single 'racist christian' out there? Or a single Christian that has ever supported Segregation? With that we'll have to just agree to disagree.

I also don't believe for one second that no republicans supported slavery and segregation. That's just divisive thinking.

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enigma

Feb-20-13 7:48 AM

wwhickok, No, I'm not saying that there are no racist Christians. In fact in my post I said that not all Christians agree. What I am saying is that the Bible, on which Christianity is based, the idea of race, let alone racism, has no foundation, therefore, racist Christians are such on there own with no doctrinal support. Conversely, atheism does support racism with its core beliefs. Hitler's idea of a master race, came from evolution, as did many of the slavery supporters in this country. They justified their positions based on the lower evolutionary status of their victims. Christianity believes that we were all created by God with equal standing under God. Which of these views do you agree with; blacks are inferior, or blacks are equal? Atheist or Christian?

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spike2

Feb-20-13 7:48 AM

Enigma and others - I'm just curious, what act or effort have you personally made to further civil rights, equality, whatever means you chose? Andy - many homes did and do require a second income to pay bills. I doubt many are going on European vacations on the little woman's income. You reference cell phones in the reasons women are out working. I think many women were out working by 1960 and we had wall phones.I believe the structural change came when men had more free time for affairs, divorce became acceptable and common, women had to work to provide support for the kids, etc.We certainly don't want mothers lying around on welfare. That's the position, right? The Bible existed then and prevented none of the aforementioned.

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enigma

Feb-20-13 7:58 AM

wwhickok,"I also don't believe for one second that no republicans supported slavery and segregation. That's just divisive thinking."

I wish you would stop reading meaning into what I say that is not there. I never used the word Republican. I cannot say that every single Republican in history supported equal rights, but I can say that when the civil rights bill was passed in the 60's that it had very little Democrat support. I'm not trying to have an argument here. I am just stating the facts that you probably won't hear from any other source. Take them for what they are worth to you. From what I have seen here, you are more fair-minded than many on this forum from either side, and I appreciate that. That is also the reason that I take the time to explain things. I don't have any delusions that people like Reeder, Hayes and BuffTrev will ever listen to reason, but you and others reading these comments, may. I don't expect you to agree with everything I say, but thanks for li

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enigma

Feb-20-13 8:02 AM

Spike2, What the H377 are you talking about? I've never heard anybody say most of the crap in you post. One thing I agree with is that you seem to be saying that things went downhill when people abandoned Biblical values. That is absolutely correct. The rest of what you said is pure nonsense.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 8:15 AM

Enigma, I'll choose neither. I believe you can be a good person without being a Christian or following "their beliefs", so, I'm going to say without investing my soul into the bible, I am against slavery, racism, infringement of civil rights.

You say you didn't say Republican..but the basis of your point was on 'liberal Democrats', so..who are the alternatives? Non-Democrats am I right? Having said that, I also am not attempting to have an arguement, we can agree we look at this issue from different perspectives, but I don't feel you're 'wrong' about your opinions. They're your opinions and points and valid at that. My views are just different. I appreciate the compliment enigma, I think you do a good job at expressing your thoughts here on the forums.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 8:17 AM

Not sure what you're referring to Spike..I'm not sure where any of that was said.

As for what I do for civil rights? Most of my 'governing' is done in the form of emails to our crappy mayor or partaking in signing petitions on the We the People section of the White House website. I can't say that I'm an activist/'picketer'. Could I do more? Absolutely.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 8:28 AM

I think I should explain something about my recent comments on this letter and others of its nature. I'm not against, by any means, the bible or religion or other peoples' beliefs. I'm not trying to paint Christianity as something evil, because it's not. Christianity/the Bible is good and Christianity is made up of mostly good people. I'm not going to discuss the semantics of the catholic church and other such things..every 'group' has their bad eggs, Christianity is no different. I just am not a supporter of putting religion into diverse 'organizations'(for a lack of a better word) such as schools and government. In fact the increased diversity is why it's been removed. I think you can be a good person without religion, but I think you can be a good person with it. I do truly believe it starts with parenting, raising your children to be good people. A child's actions are a reflection of their parents.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 8:31 AM

I use the word "child" loosely in this, because I'm talking about all of us. My actions, I would suggest are a reflection of how I was raised. Yes, at 31 years old I am responsible for myself and to make my own decisions and I have the ability to decipher right from wrong. But could you argue that I would be more involved in religion if my mother had been? I think you could. Despite my fathers side of my family being very Christian and very religious, it just didn't take with me, it's not what I had at home. But I don't think that makes me a bad person either. I am not raising my son to 'be religious', I'm raising my son to be a good person. But when he can understand, I'll absolutely introduce him to religion..not preach it to him, introduce him. If he chooses it to be something he wants in his life, that is something I'll proudly support.

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johnnyad3

Feb-20-13 8:44 AM

"It was liberal Democrats who for years fought against civil rights for blacks."

Wrong - It wasn't liberal democrats, it was mostly southern democrats (George Wallace comes to mind) who fought civil rights. Since civil rights, southern lawmakers have been rebelling against democrats and are mostly republicans now.

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johnnyad3

Feb-20-13 8:55 AM

ww - I posed a question on Friday to you regarding the letter "An Attack" I don't know if you went on vacation, but since you're back, I was hoping you could revisit that letter and answer my question regarding your comment. Thanks.

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Tgrammiex4

Feb-20-13 8:57 AM

Progress isn't always a good thing.As much as we enjoy all the technology, medical advancements etc. it has come at a cost.In our quest to have bigger, better, more, faster we have lost alot of the more important things. Time for family, teaching our children,taking the time to know and care about our neighbors and investing time and caring into our communities.Also lacking is time for God ( whatever God you choose, I don't care if you worship a rock)I admit, I'm guilty of most of the above.

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Bufftrev1

Feb-20-13 9:00 AM

Hi enigma- perhaps if you start offering something ' reasonable', then chayes, myself and others might start listening. You often offer well thought out points but your intolerance of atheists is frightening...

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CMReeder

Feb-20-13 9:07 AM

Good old enigma don't look back to 50's then recite how the conservatives did all the freeing and civil rights then ignore how they turn back on all those efforts because they decided that winning was more important than civil rights.

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CMReeder

Feb-20-13 9:08 AM

First false statement in the letter was this nation was built on the Bible. It wasn't. It was built on freedom, blood, and ideals.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 9:36 AM

Actually johnny I do most of my commenting on Sun Gazette between 6 & 1 (work hours) during the week days. On Monday mornings usually, I try to catch up with what I missed. I went back and answered your question, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

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wwhickok

Feb-20-13 9:40 AM

For me personally, I understand the 'low tolerance for atheists', Christians see them as someone who 'aggressively opposes their religion'(that's my own view of it anyway). As far as what this country was founded on, I admit, I have mixed feelings about that. I do believe to an extent it was founded on Christianity, but..is that good or bad? Those same 'founders' had slaves, supported it, etc? Sure people like Abraham Lincoln came along and paid the ultimate price for his fight against such cruelty. So, I guess it depends on how you view the time periods of this country being founded, as far as what you believe the ideals were. As far as the arguement that it was founded on ideals, not religion..again..my point about slavery.

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