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February 22, 2013

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit o......

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rmiller

Feb-25-13 9:42 PM

DavidBross,

I hope our paths cross someday. You truly are a gentleman and a scholar! :)

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DavidBross

Feb-23-13 1:28 PM

BuffTrev and Nobud, thanks for the kind words. I always look forward to your responses to any letter I submit. I have to share the credit with my editor/spouse, Peg. Rmiller, I really appreciate you post. Your post is the kind of balanced response to issues that always helps things move forward. I have certainly taken all responses, pro and con, and have learned from them.

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bryan48

Feb-23-13 8:59 AM

I am also fairly certain his wife freed them late in her life (as she would not need to offer her parents compensation). If I recall correctly, she was fearful of an uprising.

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gavinf56

Feb-23-13 8:45 AM

Although GW attended the CC and presided over it, he did not participate in any of the discussions.

"Both denounced slavery, yet did allowed it to continue on their own plantations." - bryan48

Agreed, they could have taken the higher road and freed their slaves. It's kind of hypocritical to take the stand against slavery and then focus on being fairly compensated for your lost "property" if that were to occur.

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bryan48

Feb-23-13 8:28 AM

Specifically GW and TJ. Both among the 5 wealthiest U.S. Pres. ever in their day. Both denounced slavery, yet did allowed it to continue on their own plantations. Sure, GW willed his could be free once Mary passed because he did want to provide dowry reparations, as was VA law at the time. He however had no issues with his slaves' teeth, as several were sourced to replace his. TJ did provide better living quarters for his enslaved children and eventually freed them, however the mother of those children died as a Jefferson slave.

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gavinf56

Feb-23-13 8:19 AM

"Our founders were not patriots, they were wealthy politicians who looked beyond their personal beliefs (such as being anti slavery) to maintain favor of their interests." - bryan48

Specifically?

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bryan48

Feb-23-13 8:04 AM

True. Just because something was socially acceptable years ago, does not make it right because time has passed. Our founders were not patriots, they were wealthy politicians who looked beyond their personal beliefs (such as being anti slavery) to maintain favor of their interests.

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rmiller

Feb-22-13 10:03 PM

David Bross,

I always enjoy, though not necessarily agree with your comments. You show respect and bring an aire of balance to an otherwise hotly debated forum. I don't agree with your sentiment in this letter, perhaps wishful thinking of our rich history not being tainted with the racism you intimate. I'd like to believe that our forefathers were more inclined to believe in true liberty being granted by our creator, and not the govt. and that color of skin was not the intended audience exclusively. :)

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nobud74

Feb-22-13 9:18 PM

Mr. Bross, I enjoyed your letter and many of the subsequent posts. Some were just goofy, but many were thoughtful and well articulated. Thank you.

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Bufftrev1

Feb-22-13 8:22 PM

Perhaps enigma will check back and reply.. but I'm inclined to think that won't happen. Enjoy your evening, ha-chever sheli...

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 8:15 PM

Yes Bufftrev1, I know. I just like to throw back all those "rights" the left continually claimed they lost under GW, but now that a "D" is President, it's no longer a big deal.

Bornhere, understand your point.

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BornHere

Feb-22-13 8:03 PM

gavin, I read that Mississippi never officially notified the US Archivist so the ratification was not official in 1995. It wasn't ratified until Fed. 2013.

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Bufftrev1

Feb-22-13 8:03 PM

Hi gavin.. I'm not sure that because of the incident you cited, that enigma, you or I have lost the right to due process.. while I don't know the specifics, it seems likely that it was either a tragic accident or a decision deemed the best course of action based on actionable intelligence. Anything else? I think it's more likely that enigma was embellishing a sense of something lost rather than actually being denied any type of freedom..

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 7:51 PM

Yes, it was GW's, that's why I wrote extension. It was also a bill that was opposed by then Sen. Obama.

How about Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, son of Anwar al-Awlaki, who was attending a barbeque in Yemen when he was killed by an American drone strike, so much for due process.

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Bufftrev1

Feb-22-13 7:43 PM

Hi gavin.. isn't that the law pioneered by gw? Given enigmas avowed aversion to anything inherently governmental, including, apparently, intelligence activities, as well as his equally avowed support of all things conservative, I hope this isn't all he had in mind. However, anticipating that questionable example, what else ya got? Or rather, what else do you no longer got?

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 7:28 PM

"I would have liked to ask enigma what exact freedoms he feels he has lost." - Bufftrev1

Ohhh, I don't know, how about the extension of and increased scope of the FISA Amendments Act for starters.

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 7:23 PM

All semantics, I know.

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 7:21 PM

MS actually ratified the 13th Amendment back in 1995, it was the official paperwork that was delayed until 2013.

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Bufftrev1

Feb-22-13 5:53 PM

Hi david, I enjoyed your letter and subsequent commentary, as is usually the case. Pity that duty called, I would have liked to ask enigma what exact freedoms he feels he has lost. Everywhere I go, I see folks doing the same things they always have.. very mysterious.

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BornHere

Feb-22-13 4:46 PM

Well Shaman you were right, I just read in Time Magazine that "Mississippi finally Ratifies the Amendment to Ban Slavery-148 years later", interesting reading.

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DavidBross

Feb-22-13 4:13 PM

Phil, I do get that feeling often. I like it better when people offer their views and question others in a polite way and with the idea that no matter how sure we might be of a particular point of view or belief, we can learn from others, even those with whom we disagree. I learned a lot today from many of the posts regarding my letter.

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philunderwood

Feb-22-13 1:12 PM

David, isn’t it a shame that what starts out as a reasonable discussion here rapidly turns into a total waste of time?

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:43 AM

"The real reason that we should disregard his letter is because he confused, rights with the vote. Just because a person cannot vote does not mean they do not have rights and having the vote does not denote rights. People in the Soviet Union had the right to vote as did the people of Iraq under Saddam Hussein. They did not however have rights. Liberty is the control of your own curcumstances without interference from the government not the right to vote. While more and more people can vote in this country we are less and less free. Yes I know, they had slaves, and that makes everthing they did wrong. Keep telling yourself that, while the goverment enslaves you." - enigma

*

Nooooooo...I'm fairly-certain it's the T-Bagger types (rather-than the government) who are "tweaking" the whole "Right To Vote"-concept.

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:35 AM

"That select group only included those property owners who were wealthy enough to hire others to manage their properties."

+

And that select group still exists today but they have evolved to a whole different plateau. They walk the halls of Congress formulating laws for preferential treatment, allocation of tax revenues to benefit favorite enterprises, and increasing their net worth. They garner votes by playing on the fears of those in society. They play the blame game by accusing others of being the problem and the masses believe them because they smile and tell them that they care. They dole out just enough to create an air of concern but at the end of the day create a voluntary dependency for those to "stay put in their place." - ToTEXASfromPA

*

What a PERFECT epitaph for the Koch Brothers!!!!!

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:32 AM

"it certainly seems we are heading to a situation where soon anyone with wealth will have to be a target for removing assets and income to pay for the services of those who have not." - idiottwo

*

It isn't like the Founding Fathers didn't see that coming....

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the ARISTOCRACY of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson

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