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February 22, 2013

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit o......

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 5:32 AM

The issue of slavery and the rights of ALL men was one of the most highly contested issues during the Constitutional Convention of 1787. It was the one issue that nearly scuttled the Convention and the creation of the US as we know it today.

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CarlHiller

Feb-22-13 6:06 AM

"However, I believe the original audience for whom these words were intended was a fairly limited one." Your belief Mr. Bross is a very limited belief. "That select group only included those property owners who were wealthy enough to hire others to manage their properties." That select group only included those property owners who were wealthy enough to hire others to manage their properties." The Founders in their wisdom knew that those who didn't have skin in the game, would come to twist the very essence of freedom into what we have come to be today - a welfare state trying to take care of everyone worldwide.

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WKnapp

Feb-22-13 6:07 AM

The orignal wording was "Life, Liberty and Property". Slaves were considered property. That's why it was changed.

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idiottwo

Feb-22-13 6:13 AM

it certainly seems we are heading to a situation where soon anyone with wealth will have to be a target for removing assets and income to pay for the services of those who have not. And then there are the Gov types sucking off the system and claiming to be like those without. Dishonest at the core.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Feb-22-13 8:17 AM

"That select group only included those property owners who were wealthy enough to hire others to manage their properties."

+

And that select group still exists today but they have evolved to a whole different plateau. They walk the halls of Congress formulating laws for preferential treatment, allocation of tax revenues to benefit favorite enterprises, and increasing their net worth. They garner votes by playing on the fears of those in society. They play the blame game by accusing others of being the problem and the masses believe them because they smile and tell them that they care. They dole out just enough to create an air of concern but at the end of the day create a voluntary dependency for those to "stay put in their place."

Equal opportunity to pursue gain through hard work, education, good fortune and a system of justice - yes

Equal benefits through a system of envy, divisiveness, reallocation, rewriting laws to favor groups, unjust legal systems -

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ToTEXASfromPA

Feb-22-13 8:18 AM

Chopped off>>>>

no

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enigma

Feb-22-13 8:26 AM

Ironic isn't it, that just last week, David impuned letters for failing to define pronouns and this week he fails to define 'we' in his last paragraph. By his own standard then, we, the readers, can disregard this letter because David's not even bright enought to properly use pronouns. (See how arrogant that sounds David).

The real reason that we should disregard his letter is because he confused, rights with the vote. Just because a person cannot vote does not mean they do not have rights and having the vote does not denote rights. People in the Soviet Union had the right to vote as did the people of Iraq under Saddam Hussein. They did not however have rights. Liberty is the control of your own curcumstances without interference from the government not the right to vote. While more and more people can vote in this country we are less and less free. Yes I know, they had slaves, and that makes everthing they did wrong. Keep telling yourself that, while the goverment enslaves you.

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CMReeder

Feb-22-13 8:30 AM

I liked your letter David.

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philunderwood

Feb-22-13 8:34 AM

Everyone lives and acts within the beliefs and conditions of his/her times. When that is properly considered, our founders did a remarkable job, no matter how much some wish to discredit them by judging them by our present standards.

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DavidBross

Feb-22-13 8:50 AM

Phil, I agree the FF did a remarkable job. And they did live in their own time. I wrote the letter more as a reaction the to series of letters in the paper that extol the past as some glowing model that had no blemishes. I should have made that clear in the letter. Charles, thanks, glad you liked it. Enigma, you said something very interesting, "While more and more people can vote in this country we are less and less free." Do you think the reduction of freedom is a function of more people being able to vote?

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enigma

Feb-22-13 9:03 AM

David,"Do you think the reduction of freedom is a function of more people being able to vote?"

I hadn't thought of that but now that you mention it, part of it is. Alexis de Tocqueville foresaw much of what is happening now and warned against it. I would love to go into detail but duty calls and I've got a long day ahead of me. Good Day all.

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DavidBross

Feb-22-13 9:05 AM

Francine, I wonder if the term "intended" wasn't the clearest word to use. I was thinking in terms of who most directly benefitted from the words I quoted. I think it is important to see who benefits most directly from any idea, policy etc. That says a lot about what the supporters of an idea, policy, etc had in mind.

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DavidBross

Feb-22-13 9:34 AM

Gavin56, I agree with your post. I also think that we are still dealing with the consequences of how that issue was dealt with. That would be true no matter how the issue was originally dealt with.

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:16 AM

"The issue of slavery and the rights of ALL men was one of the most highly contested issues during the Constitutional Convention of 1787. It was the one issue that nearly scuttled the Convention and the creation of the US as we know it today." - gavinf56

*

Today??????

Actually, it was February 7 (2013)...when Mississippi (finally) got on-board.

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:25 AM

"The Founders in their wisdom knew that those who didn't have skin in the game, would come to twist the very essence of freedom into what we have come to be today - a welfare state trying to take care of everyone worldwide." - CarlHiller

*

That's more-than-likely because they were educated-people...you know, "elites"...and, had more-broad/visionary pursuits...than wasting a lot o' time at their race-tracks; pre-NASCAR.

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:32 AM

"it certainly seems we are heading to a situation where soon anyone with wealth will have to be a target for removing assets and income to pay for the services of those who have not." - idiottwo

*

It isn't like the Founding Fathers didn't see that coming....

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the ARISTOCRACY of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:35 AM

"That select group only included those property owners who were wealthy enough to hire others to manage their properties."

+

And that select group still exists today but they have evolved to a whole different plateau. They walk the halls of Congress formulating laws for preferential treatment, allocation of tax revenues to benefit favorite enterprises, and increasing their net worth. They garner votes by playing on the fears of those in society. They play the blame game by accusing others of being the problem and the masses believe them because they smile and tell them that they care. They dole out just enough to create an air of concern but at the end of the day create a voluntary dependency for those to "stay put in their place." - ToTEXASfromPA

*

What a PERFECT epitaph for the Koch Brothers!!!!!

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MrShaman

Feb-22-13 10:43 AM

"The real reason that we should disregard his letter is because he confused, rights with the vote. Just because a person cannot vote does not mean they do not have rights and having the vote does not denote rights. People in the Soviet Union had the right to vote as did the people of Iraq under Saddam Hussein. They did not however have rights. Liberty is the control of your own curcumstances without interference from the government not the right to vote. While more and more people can vote in this country we are less and less free. Yes I know, they had slaves, and that makes everthing they did wrong. Keep telling yourself that, while the goverment enslaves you." - enigma

*

Nooooooo...I'm fairly-certain it's the T-Bagger types (rather-than the government) who are "tweaking" the whole "Right To Vote"-concept.

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philunderwood

Feb-22-13 1:12 PM

David, isn’t it a shame that what starts out as a reasonable discussion here rapidly turns into a total waste of time?

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DavidBross

Feb-22-13 4:13 PM

Phil, I do get that feeling often. I like it better when people offer their views and question others in a polite way and with the idea that no matter how sure we might be of a particular point of view or belief, we can learn from others, even those with whom we disagree. I learned a lot today from many of the posts regarding my letter.

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BornHere

Feb-22-13 4:46 PM

Well Shaman you were right, I just read in Time Magazine that "Mississippi finally Ratifies the Amendment to Ban Slavery-148 years later", interesting reading.

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Bufftrev1

Feb-22-13 5:53 PM

Hi david, I enjoyed your letter and subsequent commentary, as is usually the case. Pity that duty called, I would have liked to ask enigma what exact freedoms he feels he has lost. Everywhere I go, I see folks doing the same things they always have.. very mysterious.

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 7:21 PM

MS actually ratified the 13th Amendment back in 1995, it was the official paperwork that was delayed until 2013.

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 7:23 PM

All semantics, I know.

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gavinf56

Feb-22-13 7:28 PM

"I would have liked to ask enigma what exact freedoms he feels he has lost." - Bufftrev1

Ohhh, I don't know, how about the extension of and increased scope of the FISA Amendments Act for starters.

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