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Unfair punishment

April 3, 2013

Opponents of same sex marriage seem to be Christian Conservatives who wish to punish what they perceive as sin by denying the sinners the same benefits of marriage that heterosexuals receive....

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(76)

Billtown101

Apr-04-13 3:43 PM

... because man must obey or tolerate; only God may judge.

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CMReeder

Apr-04-13 12:45 PM

"How can anyone in their right mind believe that a man should be with a man or a woman with a woman, it is SICK, SICK, SICK!"

Who is it that says you have the right mind?

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gavinf56

Apr-04-13 12:34 PM

If you think it's sick, then you don't have to do it. Nobody is forcing you.

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wwhickok

Apr-04-13 11:00 AM

pinecr, that's YOUR OPINION. Within the confines of your beliefs it is sick and it is wrong. Not everyone shares your faith, your faith does not control humanity as one entity. Never has, never will.

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pinecr

Apr-04-13 10:42 AM

Phil, you got it all wrong, we don't perceive it to be sinful, IT IS SINFUL. I just can't believe that we even need to have this conversation, sin is sin. How can anyone in their right mind believe that a man should be with a man or a woman with a woman, it is SICK, SICK, SICK!

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wwhickok

Apr-04-13 6:27 AM

"where is the consideration for the will of the people?" -Enigma

I think you'll find that this 'tide' is changing, California actually houses one of the largest gay communities in the country, San Fransisco, did you know that? How long do you think it will be before the fight in the Supreme Court takes it's fight to back to California?

I think you're wrong about your assumptions on what the mass of the voters want. People are no longer naive to the "Christian Ways".

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wwhickok

Apr-04-13 6:24 AM

"Morals come from philosophies and there are many besides religious ones. As for the term Christian conservatives, there is a wide range of beliefs within Christianity as evidenced by the many denominations. All Christians certainly aren’t fundamentalists." - Phil

Another great comment!

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wwhickok

Apr-04-13 6:23 AM

"Are you competing with Sham for dumbest argument? When they said creator, who do you think they were talking about?" - Enigma

Sounds like a typical comment from you, as does the rest of your paragraph I simply chose not to quote. Who cares who they were talking about, they used the word 'Creator' I'm sure because they left the door open to change, they were not as naive as you about the eventual changing culture. Should laws be based on morals? Absolutely, should laws be based on Christian Morals? No, not necessarily because it's possible to have good morals and not be Christian. Don't believe me, just ask me I do it every day.

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wwhickok

Apr-04-13 6:20 AM

"Our founders used the term “Creator” not God for a reason. You’re born with natural rights and they can only be taken away." -Phil

Excellent Comment!

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WKnapp

Apr-03-13 11:27 PM

This 'gay marriage' issue is so STUPID! True marriage is ONLY one man and one woman, period. I agree there should be government controlled, regulated unions for those who wish an other than conventional relationship, with next-of-kin and property and inheritance rights, among other benefits of marriage. Children are affected, as these unconventionals seek children, and in most cases infants, to bring into their situations. These are children who have a right to a normal life, a home with a mother and a father, which should be the priority for infants and children under age six. The unusual, unconventional relationship should be offered special needs and hard-to-place children. Reserve the infants and children under age three for married couples who have fertility issues and can't have children in the usual way.

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Bufftrev1

Apr-03-13 8:35 PM

Hi enigma.. the library finally came through with the book you recommended by Sobel. I'm on chapter 3..

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Bufftrev1

Apr-03-13 8:33 PM

Thanks, Gavin.. I'll ask my friend again and let you know.. definitely a worthy cause.

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gavinf56

Apr-03-13 7:50 PM

So if a majority of voters vote in favor of suppressing the rights of a minority, that's ok?

Under that scenario, Jim Crow laws should still be in place in many of the southern states.

That is not a principle on which this country was founded.

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eriklatranyi

Apr-03-13 6:48 PM

It seems when put to a vote of the people, gay marriage is rejected.

Prop 8 passed in California on the same day President Obama won the state by a huge margin.

That means many Democrats voted for Prop 8.

So, where is the consideration for the will of the people?

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gavinf56

Apr-03-13 6:37 PM

Registration is at PA Runners.

Just Google PA Runners, go to the events calendar, go to May 4, and click on the event link to register if you are interested, or you can just register the day of the event.

Just an FYI, I run for fun, not to compete.

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gavinf56

Apr-03-13 6:29 PM

@BuffTRev1

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ToTEXASfromPA

Apr-03-13 6:13 PM

Gavin56,

On you 8:28 post, fair question that I will not be able to give a complete satisfactory answer for. Unless one really knows the mind of the individual, there will always be doubt one way or another. It is just hard to prove.

However what that is based upon are some comments that were made to my wife by an immediate family member that lived nearby them. We lived about 6 hrs away and that is why we only saw her at big family events. They knew that the individual had been dealing with issues the last couple of years and they attributed it directly to the lifestyle. We do know that she had also struggled with excessive alcohol off/on for a number of years and that could have been a symptom or part of the cause. Was she seeing a professional; I don't know. I don't have anymore details than that. You draw your own conclusion.

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philunderwood

Apr-03-13 6:12 PM

Morals come from philosophies and there are many besides religious ones. As for the term Christian conservatives, there is a wide range of beliefs within Christianity as evidenced by the many denominations. All Christians certainly aren’t fundamentalists.

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JohnZook

Apr-03-13 5:56 PM

1164- I wrote pre-1960's. You were expected to honor the marriage contract and since honor and respect was alive and well back then, husbands and wives did their best to work things out. Also, a divorced woman was treated as a pariah by the other wives. In fact, the husbands were looked upon as the victims sometimes. The man ruled "the roost" and it was accepted. If you want to know how it wasn't, watch "Mad Men".

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Billtown101

Apr-03-13 5:35 PM

Well, I'll be... This morning I prayed for a miracle... an by God.. I read this letter, and I 'agree' with Phil!!! EXCEPT, when he segregates Christians into political categories. I'm positive Phil, even YOU don't possess the divine power to do that. - IF you or 'your type' need clarification of what it means to be a Christian, let me explain (Simply) that there are 2 basic steps. (1) Love God with all your heart and mind, and (2) Love your neighbor, as yourself. Nowhere are there "Conservative Christians", "Liberal Christians", or any other flavor. Just Christians. Don't believe me, just ask God.

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clw1162

Apr-03-13 4:28 PM

zook where have you been...the institution of marriage doesn't work so well these days..there is a 50% divorce rate,aldultry,abuse going on on a daily basis... that doen't make for many solid family units

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enigma

Apr-03-13 3:47 PM

Phil,"Our founders used the term “Creator” not God for a reason. You’re born with natural rights and they can only be taken away."

Are you competing with Sham for dumbest argument? When they said creator, who do you think they were talking about? They were talking about God. Even if you buy into the B.S. that they were a bunch of Deists, they were talking about God. Of course they were not Deists, which is obvious from their writings. They were nearly all professing Christians. Whether they were really Christians or not is really a moot point, they were operating as Christians and using Christian ideals. The Creator they referred to was the God of the Bible, but you seem to be straying from your own argument. Is that because you now see the fallacy in it? All laws are a reflection of moral (religious) beliefs, so it is a false argument to say that law should not be based on morals. People who say this are really saying that laws should only be based on their morals.

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nobud74

Apr-03-13 3:45 PM

Good letter, Phil and good comment right below this one. I like the pragmatic approach. Unfortunately we will never get anyone on either fringe, many of those who are on here occupy those fringes, and so it almost seems pointless.

I am saddened that so many with whom I share so much in common with respect to so many things are so reluctant to see this subject through any window other than their religious teachings. I guess that is why I am more libertarian than anything because this is small potatoes when compared to the way our govt is running roughshod over the people, our rights and the law.

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philunderwood

Apr-03-13 3:26 PM

Our founders used the term “Creator” not God for a reason. You’re born with natural rights and they can only be taken away.

5 Agrees | 1 Disagrees | Report Abuse »

enigma

Apr-03-13 3:10 PM

Phil,"there is a big difference between laws aimed at punishing sin and laws against violations of other’s rights."

What rights? You see Phil, that even our rights, which the founders said come from God, are based on morals, which are based on a belief system, religion if you will. But if you can't grasp that concept and want to talk about simple rights, then changing the definition of marriage violates the rights of all those who value the real definition of marriage. Gays have the same rights the rest of us do. They can marry just like you or I can. That's not what they want. They want to redefine marriage to fit their purposes. Redefining legal terms is a dangerous endeavor.

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