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Still lacking merit

April 18, 2013

The current debate regarding same-sex marriage mirrors the debate many years ago regarding mixed-race marriage....

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DavidBross

Apr-23-13 11:04 AM

Two people are arguing. The first says, "Buttered toast always lands butter side down." The second says, "No, the bread has two sides so there is a 50/50 chance of landing butter side up or down." "Oh, no!", the first person says, "Here, I'll show you it always lands butter side down." The first person proceeds to butter a piece of toast and drop it. It lands butter side up. The second person says, "See, I told it doesn't always land butter side down!" The first person stares at the bread for a minute, then snaps his fingers and says, "I know what happened, I buttered the wrong side of the bread." Somehow, I think this story applies to this discussion.

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JohnMBower

Apr-23-13 7:55 AM

So you're saying that if you believe in Christ, you've been freed from all of the nuttier Old Testament garbage like not eating pork and stoning people who wear blended fabrics? If we then look at Leviticus 20:13, that would, by your logic, mean that it's OK to be gay as long as you're Christian, but if you're a Jew, then you must be put to death. If we uphold the prohibitions on homosexuality because of Leviticus, we must also uphold the next line that says to kill them, right?

The *New Testament* prohibits divorce and remarriage, but where are the calls that we declare that illegal?

Or are we back to picking and choosing what biblical laws we want to live by?

Justifying a ban on gay marriage because of the bible is hypocrisy.

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valves

Apr-23-13 6:27 AM

The two passages you quote are references to those who prefer not to accept Christ and continue to live by the law. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law for those who trust in Him. Those who reject Him are still living under the law, but those who accept Him live under grace.

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JohnMBower

Apr-22-13 9:26 PM

The thing is, if, in America, marriage was a purely religious institution, you could have all of the crazy laws you like. The thing is, marriage is a *legal* thing, first and foremost, in this country. It's a legal thing that dictates things like who will inherit your estate, who cannot be compelled to testify against you and who you can cover with your insurance. As a nation, our constitution demands a separation of church and state, but zealots want to limit what rational adults can do, based on a book full of hearsay that is thousands of years old. We aren't compelled to believe in God by our laws. We aren't compelled to believe in Jesus, any more than we are compelled to believe in the Hindu gods. Even though the framers of the constitution were Christian, they were wise enough to keep God out of our laws. If any two people are lucky enough to love each other, who are *you* to tell them they don't have the same rights that you do?

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JohnMBower

Apr-22-13 9:13 PM

Our friend Jesus wasn't above the occasional contradiction, then. The thing is, he said that all of the old testament laws still applied:

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)

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WKnapp

Apr-22-13 8:36 PM

Salvation comes by the grace of God, through the Person of Jesus Christ. The purpose for the sheer volume of laws in the Old Testament was to demonstrate to us our total depravity and helplessness, that we are incapable of saving ourselves. Since our Savior died and rose again from the dead, Heaven is now open for all of us, if we confess that Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life, accepting His free offer of grace for our filthy and undeserving state.

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WKnapp

Apr-22-13 8:17 PM

JohnMBower

Apr-22-13 1:55 PM

Why do people think that they can pick and choose what biblical laws to follow? Follow them all and stone women who are not virgins on their wedding night: "But if this charge is true (that a woman was not a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) If you don't uphold that law, you have no right to call for the upholding of others.

The reason is quite simple, actually. Jesus Christ came to redeem humanity and fulfill the law. On the attempted stoning of an accused adulterous woman, Jesus said, "Let him who has no sin cast the first stone." Nobody is saved by laws, since laws show us what sin is.

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JohnMBower

Apr-22-13 1:55 PM

Why do people think that they can pick and choose what biblical laws to follow? Follow them all and stone women who are not virgins on their wedding night: "But if this charge is true (that a woman was not a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) If you don't uphold that law, you have no right to call for the upholding of others.

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rmiller

Apr-20-13 6:29 PM

Wes,

Where we also agree: Neither of us need worry about different degrees of h e l l....we won't be there. You are correct....we can show the agree to disagree and still know the truth! I hope you have a blessed Sunday!

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WKnapp

Apr-20-13 3:31 PM

Where we agree: Jesus is God incarnate, He lived among sinners, died and rose again to redeem us from our sins and He's returning in Glory to take His own home. These are the important things. Other items are far less important, matters of individual denominational dogma, open for debate but not fighting over. When I went to school, I was troubled by the Methodists and Baptists arguing over, and even calling each other un-Christian over differences in doctrine between denominations. I was Presbyterian, and saw that we all basically agreed on the important things. Minor things as these are not worth argument, demeaning fellow Christians or openly fighting. Let's leave that to the different denominations of other religions, OK?

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rmiller

Apr-20-13 11:46 AM

I have disabled my g o o g l e toolbar and am not using a spell checker, hence the grammatical errors...

H e l l is h e l l and it is everlasting and it is torture and it is real. No human, who refuses to accept Christ as their Saviour has any option other than h e l l. But, a study of the Bible will bear out God's Word on "judgement being "worse" for some than others. Judgement, nonetheless, but worse. That in and of itself speaks to God's justness. I do understand your not wanting to trivialize an eternity in h e l lbecause some may believe then that h e l l won't be so bad. I also understand that as a Christian, that could be a slippery slope when we attempt to be a witness. But, we cannot add to or take from God's Word and He does speak to degrees of h e l l. For what it is worth, as a believer, I appreciate your courage to speak to truth and grace, of whom Christ is! :)

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rmiller

Apr-20-13 11:36 AM

Wayne, Your posts clearly indicate your love for the Lord and your firm belief of salvation through the atoning works on the cross and is shed blood as being the only way in which we are righteous. When we are saved, once and for all, God sees HIs Son and His work on the cross, not us. I think we concur on that. As you have rightly stated, God is just. When we get to heaven, we receive our rewards (crowns...which will number differently among the body) from our works "after salvation. We are not swaved through works, "lest any man boast.' But, works are evidence of our "true" salvation." What willl break my heart is when Jesus looks at me some day and I have little or no crowns to cast at His feet when others will have strived to continually advance the kingdom of God here on earth.

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DavidBross

Apr-20-13 7:59 AM

RMiller, thank you for your concern. I appreciate that a lot. I have been around long enough to know that what I believe can, and often does, change with time and the opportunity to meet people and learn more about the world.

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WKnapp

Apr-20-13 12:11 AM

***** = h e l l I don't know why the second time was OK and the first wasn't!

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WKnapp

Apr-20-13 12:09 AM

OK, then obviously there are degrees of salvation! After all, Jesus made reference on several occasions to "the least in the Kingdom of Heaven". I happen to believe you're either going to heaven or not. If you go to heaven, it's the parable of the vinyard, where the workers were hired at different times of the day, but all received the same wage. Similarly,*****is hell. Death is death. Can there be degrees of being dead? Nope. You're either saved or dead. I understand the all too human desire to have degrees, but God is perfect justice, mercy, grace, love, vengeance, judgement, etc. God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways are higher than our ways. We can no more understand Him than an insect can understand us.

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rmiller

Apr-19-13 11:07 PM

We are not, never will be righteous on our own account, only through the blood of Jesus Christ. People think we hate them. We don't hate them, we don't want them to go to h e l l forever.... People have no idea how long forever is and no matter the belief in Christ as the only rightousness God will accept or not (your ref. to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, doesn't change the facts. Right is right, we aren't arrogant, we are simply right and the proof is there in the Bible.....All religions can't be right, only one. I'm sorry if I minced words and my comment on degrees of sin was misinterpreted. Some sins are an abomination, but all sin is guilty of death. I hope I clarified that... :)

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rmiller

Apr-19-13 11:00 PM

Hi Wayne. I do like that invitational hymm. :)

I never thought there were degrees of sin, either. Let me explain something to you, perhaps you can learn something, I just learned within the past few months and had it reiterated this week during our revival services. There are several verses in God's Word that speak to "It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gommorah in that day of judgement, than it will be for you (at that time I belleve Chozarin)? For God to be just (and we both know He is) while all sin is sin, it now makes sense that God would hold for instance Hitler in worse judgement than someone who tells a lie or two, or robs a bank. Perhaps, I should have said that there will be degrees of h e l l based on the severity of sin before God. If you'd like, the evangelist made reference to another verse where Jesus ascribes a greater "condemnation" than something else. But, h e l l is exactly that, h e l l. H e l l is a choice, eternity is a destination

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WKnapp

Apr-19-13 10:44 PM

Humans assign degrees to sin. To God, a sin is a sin, regardless what was done. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death, not the wages of CERTAIN sin is death, but the wages of ANY sin is death. The only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme Holy Spirit. That is to be told of the Way to Salvation, but to reject it as nonsense. That only holds absent repentance from that stance. God is very forgiving, but only in the presence of the Blood of Jesus. "Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power, are you washed in the Blood of the Lamb? Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour, are you washed in the Blood of the Lamb?"

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rmiller

Apr-19-13 6:04 PM

Having said that, my personal conviction is based on God's admonishment about sodomy being an abomination. One sin, a thousand...it's all sin and God hates it. There are degrees of sin, but sin is still sin and the degrees of sin is another discussion altogether. I just wanted to add my perspective and how I believe that while your letter seems logical in theory, I'm suggesting that the issue of skin color, versus heart choice, are two different avenues.

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rmiller

Apr-19-13 5:59 PM

We want to believe people are born that way, because we can excuse the argument for the action and lifestyle choice. But, that argument could be made for any activity, not the least of which could be murder, lying, stealing, etc. The question often posed by pro-gay activists is, "Why would anyone subject themselves to the harassment and bigotry of the "coming out." Why would someone kill, when the penalty is life imprisonment and or death penalty? Here's where that argument pales. Indeed, the society world wide is accepting of the gay community even though many do not want it practiced and made law, despite the polls. You know i'm sure, that the results of many polls, reflect the opinions of "how, where and why" of the poll conducted. No doubt, people in San Francisco would state that 60-70% of people polled think gay marriages should be legal. Take that same poll in the Bible Belt and your averages change radically. cont. >>

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rmiller

Apr-19-13 5:51 PM

David,

You know I have respect for your demeanor and your thoughts. I may not agree with them, but I have always resepcted them. Having said that, please rethink what your argument says. One party (those who would be of different ethnic/racial heritage) are so without choice. That is a blood/heritage issue. Being gay is about an action, not a skin color. Regardless of where one stands on the issue of homosexuality, comparing the "choice" of a lifestyle to literally having blood lines is saying a person becomes a car just because they stand in a garage. cont.

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rmiller

Apr-19-13 5:42 PM

There are several people on here who have their "faith" in the person of Jesus Christ and have been bold in sharing. You don't have to believe in Him, but that won't change His existence. We have revival services still running tonight at TBC Third and Maynard...7pm. It may be the only time you have to answer to His call. You take a high risk everytime you ignore Him. The higher risk is often what God can and has allowed to happen in the lives of those we love. Just sayin...

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rmiller

Apr-19-13 5:36 PM

Mike,

"Are you kidding me? L U S T is a 'bad' word and is banned here?"

It's a bad word for liberals. :)

Please check your PM on the forum.

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superduper

Apr-19-13 4:25 PM

So when is the next funeral you guys are planning to protest at?

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WKnapp

Apr-19-13 4:21 PM

"If sodomy was the only sin you ever comitted, it would be enough to send you to an eternity in hell, period."

Truthfully, without faith in Christ, believing in His redeeming work on the cross, having a personal relationship with Him, even the simplest of so-called 'white lies' condemns one to eternal damnation. "There is a fountain filled with blood drawn from Emmanuel's veins; and sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains."

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