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Gay rights

May 27, 2013

This is amazing, a basketball player came out and stated he was gay, ok. In the meantime, our so called man that is suppose to be running our Great country called him and gave him congratulations....

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(109)

nobud74

May-29-13 10:01 PM

Nice, CH, I may not agree with everything Rmiller has to say but at least the discourse was civil. For someone from the party of inclusion and acceptance you are very much the opposite. And I would say that is typical of the liberal way. It's sad because the way liberalism is presented nobody would object, but that is not the reality of liberalism. Hope you had a good anniversary and many many more. My wife and I will be celebrating our 28th next month. A good woman who can put up with us is a rare thing and to be cherished. Congrats.

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CHayes

May-29-13 3:29 PM

"But, because He is a loving God, He is also a God of judgment. To believe that He loves and forgives when we fall and there will be no accountability"

And more self infantilization.

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CHayes

May-29-13 3:27 PM

"Some of the laws that enemies of the cross attempt to display God as some type of evil person"

You should swap the word "imaginary" for the word "evil".

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CHayes

May-29-13 3:26 PM

"rmiller, I was not attacking you personally"

Good, because that's my job.

"As, He has used it to correct me, daily in my devotions."

So now you're telling us you literally are hearing voices? It seems the train has left the station. Get help. Soon.

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rmiller

May-29-13 12:41 PM

nobud,

I appreciate your thoughts. Please know that I don't have "religion", rather a personal relationship with the living God. As such, His Word is what He left us and I don't use it to make a point, I use it in "rebuke, correction and reproof." As, He has used it to correct me, daily in my devotions.

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nobud74

May-29-13 12:21 PM

rmiller, I was not attacking you personally. I can see you are fervent in your beliefs. We see things from a different perspective. I believe that religion is a personal matter and to use scripture to advance a cause or point is flawed since it is not the literal word of God--due to the points I have laid out here earlier. But, that is the beautiful thing about America, we can have this discourse in a civil manner, unlike those in theocracy such as we see in the Middle East.

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rmiller

May-29-13 8:35 AM

spike2,

Spike, Mike is attempting to give you a choice. Herein is the truth. "God will not be mocked, whatsoever and man soweth, that shall he reap."

Don't turn a deaf ear. You don't want what the "other side" has to offer. :(

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rmiller

May-29-13 8:31 AM

Nobud,

God is a loving God. But, because He is a loving God, He is also a God of judgment. To believe that He loves and forgives when we fall and there will be no accountability...again...we will wonder if our faults outweigh our good acts? When people die, they don't always just go to heaven. Christ paid the price for our sins. Only He can stand in our stead before a Holy God and say, "Well done, thy good and faithful servant." And, we are forgiven immediately once we accept the fact that He, and He alone paid the penalty (and there is a penalty) for our sins in this lifetime. There is no other way, period.

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rmiller

May-29-13 8:25 AM

Some of the laws that enemies of the cross attempt to display God as some type of evil person, were given to the nation of Israel specifically to bring them into obedience. It is interesting that without the J e w s, we would not have the Gospel. Back to your critiquing of me when it comes to speaking the truth. God has called His people (the Bride of Christ) to win souls, that is our mission here. Along the way, we are also called to do "right' as you asserted. But, doing right is not what affords us our salvation - it is a projection of who we are in Christ. Works cannot save us and I am relieved when I lay my head down at night and go to sleep that "if I should die" I know where I will be the second I close my eyes. If salvation could be earned by works, wouldn't we all wonder if we had done enough?

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ToTEXASfromPA

May-29-13 8:19 AM

Spike2,

The issues that Mike mentioned like abortion, adultery, and homosexuality are addressed in the Bible and are counter to God's perfection.

However, you can from a natural point of view see that there is a better way, a more natural way that is manifested by perpetuation of the human race and mankind. That natural way is a monogamous relationship between a man and woman that leads to the creation of children from which we get the family unit. Generally the mother is the more caring, "nesting", nurturing member in the teaching of the children while the father is the protector and disciplinarian. They care for each other as a unit and provide for both the young and the elderly.

Killing of the babies or having a "couple" that can not generate children because of uni-sexuality do not perpetuate the human race. Pushing fudge doesn't create babies. A mother and father provide the balance in the raising of the children to pass values to the next generation.

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rmiller

May-29-13 8:18 AM

Only the original manuscripts were inspired. Having said that however, because God has said in His Word that He would preserve His Word from generation unto generation (and He has) and that His Word would be refined seven times, Biblical Scholars have concluded (not all) that the KJV is the seventh preservation. I accept that. When the KJV was translated and reproduced, it was at the height of excellency of the English Language, thus for me...making it the only translation I will read. My son showed me the corruption of the texts post the KJV and as a result, I choose the KJV. Was their error along the lines of preservation? Yes. However when scholars study the original scripts, against the KJV, the "errors/contradictions that are purported by those who would pervert the Gospel, are minimal and do not affect the Gospel message so as to not reach the sinner with the truth. I debated Mike for years and I was wrong.

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rmiller

May-29-13 8:10 AM

If someone wants to attack me personally for a personal comment I have made, that's their right. But, to attack me because I quote from God's Word (and they still have a right) from a purported professing Christian, I believe is not fair to the brethren. With respect to what you said, God is going to judge us, but I stand in His Righteousness, not on anything I do hear on earth. The Bible does have literal meaning/scope, along with cultural scope (at that day and time), but it is the Word of God. Revelation warns explicitly about adding to or taking from it and I take Him serious. Herein is where Mike and I got into a debate and I was wrong from my end of the argument. I believed for years that the KJV was the "inspired" Word of God. My son, explained to me that the KJV is not the "inspired Word of God" rather the last "preservation of His Word. When the KJV was translated, it was the seventh translation of the original manuscripts.

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rmiller

May-29-13 8:02 AM

nobud,

" Also, I believe my judgement and yours will come when we die, not from one another and I believe my god is a loving god who wants us to do right but understands we are flawed and loves us just the same"

I haven't always agreed with your posts, but about 90% of the time, you are spot on. :) Having said that, may I offer some thought with respect to your above comment? If, when I post a Biblical mandate, it is considered the sword, and it (the Word of God is what is sharp, not me. What people get angry about is the message, not necessarily the messenger, but you know the phrase, "shoot the messenger."

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ToTEXASfromPA

May-29-13 7:44 AM

Cont>>>

Most scholars don't claim 100% words are literal since many of the writings are figurative, much symbolism is used, and parables/word pictures are used to describe things. They do claim that it is inerrant.

There are many scholars that have documented these things. A book called "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by McDowell is on the way. I find it best to skip around from topics of interest.

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ToTEXASfromPA

May-29-13 7:43 AM

"And, in my opinion, the bible has been translated, reworked, rewritten and copied by hand so much that there is no way the original text exists. Also, I do not believe every word of it is literal. I believe that much of what is there is written in the terminology of the day, not today."--nobud74

+++

You are correct in that no one seems to be able to produce the complete original manuscript that the words were written on.

But there are 20,000+ different manuscripts (from a verse to complete books) and many of which were from the first several centuries. These also occur in multiple languages life Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Egyptian, Syrian, Aramaic, Arabic, etc. When the scholars assemble these manuscripts, they cross-reference for accuracy and translate them using the meanings and context of the times. They also look at similar words that could have been used and try to ascertain if there were reasons for the actual word selections.

Cont>>>

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spike2

May-29-13 7:09 AM

Thanks Kerstetter. You prove my point. "The Bible says", yet you have absolutely no personal knowledge. You have a personal belief the book is factual. Guess we'll all find out when we are dead. Which cosmos are we going to, where is this land called heaven again? Perhaps on the other side of the flat earth.

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mikekerstetter

May-29-13 4:18 AM

rick424-"They feel it is. All in the interpretation I suppose."

Rick, they are clearly wrong in their interpretation. The Bible, in no way, shape or form, tells them to behave in the manner that they do. In fact, their behavior is contrary to God's word.

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mikekerstetter

May-29-13 3:57 AM

Cont'd-

I'm no Bible scholar, but it's my understanding that the original texts do exist, at least in parts. Yes, they have been translated into other languages. I, personally, look at several different translations when studying scripture. There are those who will only use the King James Version because they feel it is the only english version that get's the translation right. I don't understand Old World English, so that's a version I particularly care for. For reading, I like the Common English Bible. For studying, I like the New King James or NIV. I've also read the Message Bible and the NLT. I've found that, though the words used may be a bit different, the message the Bible contains is the same.

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mikekerstetter

May-29-13 3:48 AM

nobud74-"And, in my opinion, the bible has been translated, reworked, rewritten and copied by hand so much that there is no way the original text exists. Also, I do not believe every word of it is literal. I believe that much of what is there is written in the terminology of the day, not today. So, there is at least some room for interpretation. Also, I believe my judgement and yours will come when we die, not from one another and I believe my god is a loving god who wants us to do right but understands we are flawed and loves us just the same. The tossing about of scripture means the one doing the tossing better be everything they scream about lest they be a hypocrite, slanderer or worse."

Yes, there is room for interpretation on some issues. No, we're not supposed to judge one another. We are, however, even though all of us sin, supposed to admonish and encourage one another in love.

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mikekerstetter

May-29-13 3:37 AM

spike2-"kerstetter - you can debate religion. You can't use religion as the argument. Religion is a belief, an unproven fact, even with a strongly held, firm belief.Neither side can prove or disprove any religion."

Yes we can.

I don't support abortion because I think it's murder and according to the Bible murder is wrong.

I don't support Gay marriage because the Bible defines marriage as one man and one woman. It further says that homosexuality is an abomination.

I don't support adultery because the Bible says it's a sin.

There is a whole host of other things that the Bible calls sins. So, yeah, if one of the reasons I believe a certain way is because the Bible says it I am going to tell you so. To suggest that I'm not entitled to use that opinion in a debate because it stems from my belief in the Word of God is an infringement of my free speech.

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spike2

May-28-13 9:39 PM

kerstetter - you can debate religion. You can't use religion as the argument. Religion is a belief, an unproven fact, even with a strongly held, firm belief.Neither side can prove or disprove any religion.

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nobud74

May-28-13 6:29 PM

rmiller, I respect your opinion. But, I do have mine as well. And, in my opinion, the bible has been translated, reworked, rewritten and copied by hand so much that there is no way the original text exists. Also, I do not believe every word of it is literal. I believe that much of what is there is written in the terminology of the day, not today. So, there is at least some room for interpretation. Also, I believe my judgement and yours will come when we die, not from one another and I believe my god is a loving god who wants us to do right but understands we are flawed and loves us just the same. The tossing about of scripture means the one doing the tossing better be everything they scream about lest they be a hypocrite, slanderer or worse. I wouldn't want that responsibility, I'll leave that to the man upstairs, he is better equipped than me to mete out the punishment.

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rick424

May-28-13 6:05 PM

"Chris, I'll be the first one to tell you that the Westboro Baptist Church's actions are not in line with Christ's teachings."

They feel it is. All in the interpretation I suppose.

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mikekerstetter

May-28-13 5:30 PM

So in other words you want to debate things but you get to control what is used in the debate. Not going to happen. Sorry.

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spike2

May-28-13 3:37 PM

Kerstetter - point is you are preaching to a choir who hold the same beliefs and no one else is interested. My point is that the LTE's hopefully facilitate new conversations, not regurgitate the same worn out commentary. We are ALL saying the same thing 80% of the time ad nauseum.

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