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Appalled?

May 27, 2013

In the letter titled "First Amendment reminder," the writer said she was “appalled at the horror of what Dr. Gosnell did....

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(84)

Tedeaux

May-27-13 2:49 AM

Not much difference between what Gosnell was doing and what takes place at a legal abortion every day really. Timing is about it. If you're appalled by one, you should be appalled by the other just as much.

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CarlHiller

May-27-13 5:15 AM

"Is it that Dr. Gosnell got caught and laid open the hypocrisy of some pro-choice advocates?" That is exactly what they are appalled at. They don't want a dixcussion on when life begins, that has already been answered, what they are truly afraid of is the issue of when is a human baby (fetus) a person, or when has he oe she attained person-hood under the Constitution and the 14th Amendment specifically. That's where they will lose the war and the lib elitists know it.

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CHayes

May-27-13 6:10 AM

"For many pro-choice advocates, they say a fetus does not become a living child until it can survive outside the woman's body"

Including you Gavin. I think the point you specified here the day before yesterday was 24 weeks. It was at the same time you said an embryo was a cluster of cells.

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nobud74

May-27-13 6:22 AM

Tedeaux, correct. But, the ability of the left to ignore what is in front of their noses is astounding. Please tell all those proud parents whose children were born in the 20 something week range and who have survived to be loved and nurtured that those babies were just a mass of cells. I'll bet dad would take a swing at you! The reality is that we have abortion protected in this country and there are guidelines which were evidently not followed in this case. If you want to stop abortion, and I don't think that is a good idea, you have to change the law. We will have abortions no matter if it is legal or not, legalization gives the mother a better chance to survive. Perhaps upon reflection she will change her mind about the action and educate others. The real changers in this debate will be those moms, not a bunch of posters on a website.

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mikekerstetter

May-27-13 6:23 AM

CHayes-"Including you Gavin. I think the point you specified here the day before yesterday was 24 weeks. It was at the same time you said an embryo was a cluster of cells."

Gavin is setting the point after which he thinks abortion becomes murder. I disagree with him, but at least he's willing to give us a point at which he thinks the child has the right to life.

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eriklatranyi

May-27-13 6:40 AM

nobud74, you are correct and this is why we are slowly winning the war over abortion.

3-dimensional ultrasounds and hearing the baby's heartbeat at only a few weeks is melting the once cold hearts of women in this country.

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CMReeder

May-27-13 7:32 AM

"3-dimensional ultrasounds and hearing the baby's heartbeat at only a few weeks is melting the once cold hearts of women in this country"

You mean guilt them into pregnancy.

No one forced those women into Dr. Gosnell's offices at 6, 7, 8 or 9 months of pregnancy.

The problem with Gavin's argument is that you are forcing women to a timeline without any support. No support at all. You can not argue the right to life by denying the rights of women in the process.

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spike2

May-27-13 7:38 AM

Erik - you are only winning this war with people primarily past the age of procreation. Put this issue on a ballot. Let those to whom the topic is personally relevant vote.I bet you don't give two craps about abortion in China and frankly most don't even see an agenda. poor people will still get unsafe abortions but perhaps we can up the Caucasian birth rate and adjust the changing demographics.

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mikekerstetter

May-27-13 8:31 AM

Spike, poor people still do drugs and share dirty needles and it's illegal, so does that mean we should legalize and subsidize it to ensure they use clean needles?

It's a poor argument to say that the rights of unborn children should be set aside because some woman will get illegal abortions.

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MrShaman

May-27-13 8:32 AM

"One has to wonder what they are really appalled at. Is it that Dr. Gosnell got caught and laid open the hypocrisy of some pro-choice advocates?" - Gavin T. Ferringer

*

I think it's more a comment on what SHOULD be expected, in all o' those Red States that are making every effort to ban abortion (initially) state-wide, and (eventually) nation-wide.

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WKnapp

May-27-13 8:34 AM

Abortion should never have been decided by an unconstitutional US Supreme Court case. If the federal government wished to insinuate itself into the abortion issue, there should have been an unconstitutional bill written and presented to Congress, sent to the President OR an unconstitutional national referendum to be decided by the people. This thing should actually have been decided by each state, not the feds on any level.

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MrShaman

May-27-13 8:38 AM

"Is it that Dr. Gosnell got caught and laid open the hypocrisy of some pro-choice advocates?" - Gavin T. Ferringer

"That is exactly what they are appalled at." - CarlHiller

*

Are you "conservatives"/"believers" all THAT comfortable, playing mind-reader??

Isn't that one o' those "dark arts" you'd always considered "sins"???

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Tgrammiex4

May-27-13 8:38 AM

So are pro-choice supporters ok with unprotected casual sex ? Are they ok with throwing personal responsibility out the window? Are they ok with abortion being used as birth control? Why is it smokers are castigated for the behavior of smoking and omg, the damage they do to others with 2nd hand smoke but people having unprotected casual sex can spread STDs and take a baby's life by choice but that is accepted behavior?

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philunderwood

May-27-13 8:48 AM

Gavin’s letter is spot on. As for the life begins at conception argument, life is already there in the form of the egg and sperm. If that’s changed to an individual's life begins at conception, then we must accept that a pair of joined cells is an individual. I think we could take that argument seriously if we held funerals for miscarriages.

The opposing argument that an individual has no right to life until after a complete birth is the other extreme. It’s far more rational to place that point at some place early in a pregnancy. Our personal opinions aren’t going to make a difference, only changing the law will accomplish that.

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MrShaman

May-27-13 8:49 AM

"Not much difference between what Gosnell was doing and what takes place at a legal abortion every day really. Timing is about it." - Tedeaux

*

...And, how was that "timing" managed, at the clinic where you worked?

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MrShaman

May-27-13 9:04 AM

"Tedeaux, correct. But, the ability of the left to ignore what is in front of their noses is astounding." - nobud74

*

Ya' know...if you "conservatives" spent a "little"-more-time developing a (more-satisfying) Life, of YOUR OWN...you wouldn't have the TIME to obsess over what others HAVE "in front of their noses".

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ToTEXASfromPA

May-27-13 9:07 AM

"After 16 weeks, much of the procedure is done with forceps to pull fetal parts out through the cervical opening. The doctor keeps track of what fetal parts have been removed so that none are left inside to potentially cause infection. Lastly, a curette, and/or the suction machine is used to remove any remaining tissue or blood clot ensuring the uterus is empty."

Sounds more than just this so-called "blob of cells" term that people use to dehumanized the process.

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MrShaman

May-27-13 9:18 AM

"3-dimensional ultrasounds and hearing the baby's heartbeat at only a few weeks is melting the once cold hearts of women in this country." - eriklatranyi

*

Gee...how "poetic".

You'd have to be fairly-young, voluntarily-stupid, or one o' those "conservatives" who makes EVERY effort to avoid the real World...to refer to "the once cold hearts", when describing women who've ACTUALLY DEALT with making such a tough decision!!!

You (quite obviously) have NO IDEA what someone (in that situation) experiences!!!

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ToTEXASfromPA

May-27-13 9:22 AM

Dilation and Evacuation (D & E): about 24 weeks and up

"When the abortion is done at a point when a live birth is possible, injections are given to cause fetal death. This is done in order to comply with the federal law which requires that the fetus be dead before complete removal from the mother's body. The medications (digoxin and potassium chloride) are either injected into the amniotic fluid, the umbilical cord or directly into the fetus' heart."

Death by lethal injection and the baby committed no crime.

"An alternate technique called "Intact D and E" may also be used. The goal of this procedure is to remove the fetus in one piece thus reducing the risk of leaving parts behind to cause infection, among other things.....Often it is necessary to crush the fetus' skull for removal as it is difficult to dilate the cervix enough to bring the head out intact."

Again that skull seems more than just a blob of soft tissue since it has to be crushed.

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MrShaman

May-27-13 9:23 AM

Erik - you are only winning this war with people primarily past the age of procreation. Put this issue on a ballot. Let those to whom the topic is personally relevant vote." - spike2

*

BINGO...the WOMEN, in Congress, ONLY!!!!!

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ToTEXASfromPA

May-27-13 9:24 AM

"You (quite obviously) have NO IDEA what someone (in that situation) experiences!!!"

+++

Nor does the abortion doctor that performs the procedure. He is in it for the money.

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DavidBross

May-27-13 9:26 AM

Phil, good point about how miscarriages are handled. I hadn't thought about that.

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Tedeaux

May-27-13 9:31 AM

If abortions were only performed on women that were pregnant as a result of a rape or incest it would be one thing, but on average abortions are performed 3700 times a day in the United States. Abortions seem to be plan "A" as far as birth control goes and that is unacceptable to me and a lot of other people here Mrshaman. Have you no heart that killing children through abortions is acceptable to you? Maybe you're the one that needs to get out and get a life....

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MrShaman

May-27-13 9:31 AM

"Spike, poor people still do drugs and share dirty needles and it's illegal, so does that mean we should legalize and subsidize it to ensure they use clean needles?" - mikekerstetter

*

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight...'cause, "nice" people don't USE needles...or, use drugs...or, live "loose"-lifestyles...before having s e x with "conservatives"' little prom-queen daughters.

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MrShaman

May-27-13 9:37 AM

"Abortion should never have been decided by an unconstitutional US Supreme Court case. If the federal government wished to insinuate itself into the abortion issue, there should have been an unconstitutional bill written and presented to Congress, sent to the President OR an unconstitutional national referendum to be decided by the people. This thing should actually have been decided by each state, not the feds on any level." - WKnapp

*

Sorry. "Should have" doesn't count, in the real World.

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