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Honor unspoiled nature

June 20, 2013

It's been said that there is no greater freedom than that which is found in the presence of unspoiled nature....

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(68)

VXerick

Jun-30-13 3:00 PM

No moratoriums until the people who demand it give up their gas and oil furnaces, hot water heaters, vehicles, any appliances or machines that use either gas or oil.

Go back to the 1800s and live with artificial light from candles and get your heat the best way you can because you've already taken nuclear and coal out of it.

Maybe your wind farms and solar panels can supply you with a small portion of what you got from these other "natural" resources. Lots of luck with that!

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ToTEXASfromPA

Jun-22-13 7:02 AM

"I'm with you. Six years buys a lot of time to watch what's happening in other states that are allowing this activity."--CHayes

+++

When I see moratorium, I just see a delay with the disguise that it will go away forever and not be done at all.

Since you are so educated on the topic, what are specific measures and deliverables that should be met or accomplished to ensure it is safe or viable enough to proceed with?

Even if there was a moratorium, the people six years from now would say.....well it did work over there but ours is different and we still don't want it.

What is the evaluation plan that you would put in place; what principles of engineering, science, geology, etc would need to be proven and to what degree for the moratorium to be lifted?

If these measures were met sooner, would you pull the moratorium sooner?

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 3:48 PM

" A ban on fracking would be the intelligent move on Pa.'s part. For now, we are pushing for a 6 year moritorium, which the majority of Pa. citizens already support."

I'm with you. Six years buys a lot of time to watch what's happening in other states that are allowing this activity.

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MisMac

Jun-21-13 1:15 PM

CHayes, I am so glad to hear that you came to see Gasland 2 to see what is truely going on up in those beautiful mountains. We are being fracked and fleeced. A ban on fracking would be the intelligent move on Pa.'s part. For now, we are pushing for a 6 year moritorium, which the majority of Pa. citizens already support.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Jun-21-13 9:29 AM

"How do you know when a piece of pipe buried a mile underground, or 100 ft for that matter, starts leaking?"-CHayes

++

There are older wells that were drilled and completed with older techniques and practices that have leaked. In those cases, the wells have been producing for years; the pressures in the wellbores are lower and if there is a leak, it is into the wellbore. These leaks can be detected by changes in the mineralogy of the water that comes from the well. In many gas wells, there is a separate tubing string and the tubing/casing annulus pressure can be monitored.

Procedures are undertaken to squeeze cement into a casing leak, run a new string of steel casing as another layer of protection or in the worst cases, abandon the well with proper isolation/techniques and drill a new one. Through all this, there is still a separate casing string called the "surface casing" that is in place to protect the fresh water zones.

CHayes, I need to get to work.

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 9:24 AM

You cam expect the smear and disinformation campaigns to start promptly on the 9th, as one of the things that was highlighted in the movie was how energy companies have been encouraging their lobbyists/surrogates to read the US military counterinsurgency manual, and use what they find inside against anyone that would speak against them.

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 9:21 AM

The movie will start airing on July 8 on HBO, you'll have to watch and see.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Jun-21-13 9:19 AM

CHayes,

How much frac fluid rate did he say comes up through those cracks in the cement around the steel casing during the frac job? What has he observed?

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 9:15 AM

" Its pipe undergoes stresses that casing in a well does not. Car wash pipe is constantly being moved, pulled on, jerked around, rubbed over sharp corners of cars/trucks, etc."

That's note the hose I'm talking about. I'm talking about hose in the back room of my buddy's car wash that's feeding water to one of his auto wash bays. That's what I came by and saw the aftermath of. It's not hose that anyone touches or pulls on.

And again, when that pipe leaked, it was self evident. How do you know when a piece of pipe buried a mile underground, or 100 ft for that matter, starts leaking?

I don't care what the rating is on a piece of pipe. I don't care about the care with which it was installed. ALL pipe leaks with time. Everything fails in time. And if the thing that fails is the thing that's preventing an aquifer that people rely on for clean water from being poisoned, then that's a HUGE problem.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Jun-21-13 9:11 AM

"How well does cement seal to a smooth bore hole in rock?" --CHayes

++

The hole is not perfectly smooth; if you were to run a caliper log, you would see constant variations to the hole diameters; much is due to the changing lithology and difference in rock layers. Some holes can even be elliptical in some places. In fact, before a cement job, they usually run a caliper log to calculate the cement columns they need.

During the cement job, the hydrostatic pressures of the overburden fluids in the annulus exceed those of the pore pressures of the formation and the cement is pushed against the wellbore face. Much like water pressure on your ears when you go under water but the pressure differences are greater.

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 9:03 AM

He's one of the world's leading experts on fracture mechanics.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Jun-21-13 9:01 AM

Again, pipe in a car wash is not a good comparison. Its pipe undergoes stresses that casing in a well does not. Car wash pipe is constantly being moved, pulled on, jerked around, rubbed over sharp corners of cars/trucks, etc. Sometimes it could be exposed to freezing and the pressures that are put on the inside of the pipe that are above its rating. Most of the times, the leaks are in the joints that are constantly being stressed by external forces.

Casing is stationary and stays fixed in place. If you took well casing and were constantly over stressing it, it could leak too. There are documented cases of earthquakes where the ground is shifted, shearing off casing. Even then, people could re-enter the wellbore to perform repair or proper abandonment.

Again, not an equal comparison.

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 9:01 AM

And if you're interested, the Cornell scientist is Tony Ingrafea.

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 8:59 AM

" That is the same type of force that acts against the hardened cement from the surrounding rock layers to keep it from growing, expanding and cracking."

If you drill a hole in rock, and fill it with cement, nothings pushing against anything. How well does cement seal to a smooth bore hole in rock? Again, there's a reason gaskets aren't made out of cement.

It's not like its a big deal Tex, all we're talking about is our water supply. It's not like humans need clean water to survive.

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 8:52 AM

" The bigger concern is the proper placement of cement around the casing and that is why efforts are taken to do the cement job properly."

Yeah, like in the Gulf, right? I'm telling you, I just saw an interview with a REALLY smart scientist from Cornell, that has done extensive work for Schlumberger, say that 5%-10% of ALL gas well casings are cracked from day one, and he was VERY specific that the cracking he was talking about were cracks that would allow migration.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Jun-21-13 8:43 AM

CHayes,

Why don't you go push against a quarry wall or a rock outcrop and tell me how far you can move it. That is the same type of force that acts against the hardened cement from the surrounding rock layers to keep it from growing, expanding and cracking. I would expect some micro cracks in some cements but again they don't allow the fluids to flow through them; they are not like cracks in a sidewalk or house foundation.

There are many faults and fractures in the rock layers throughout the world. That is why there are tar pits, natural seepage of oil/natural gas that can be seen on ocean floors, and they find natural occurring gas in some fresh water. The cracks in the cement are less pronounced and don't conduct fluids.

The bigger concern is the proper placement of cement around the casing and that is why efforts are taken to do the cement job properly. Even then, repairs can be done to rectify any issue.

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MrShaman

Jun-21-13 8:43 AM

"There is something going on with the agree/disagrees. Three of my agrees came up disagrees.....and 4 of my disagrees added to BOTH the agree and disagree count. The three agrees were agreeing with conservative comments, and the 4 disagrees were on liberal comments." - USABorn

*

You (actually) obsess-about-that???

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 8:40 AM

I think these are perfectly legitimate questions.

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 8:39 AM

I don't care what the rating on a piece of hose or pipe is, if you expose it to high pressure for extended periods of time, it WILL leak. When its in a car wash, you know its leaking because its spraying water everywhere. When its buried a mile underground, how do you know its leaking? When the neighbors kids get cancer? Whenthey can light the water in their tap on fire?

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MrShaman

Jun-21-13 8:38 AM

"Hey Francine and Reeder, you talk like the left is the best thing since apple pie, Wake up and take a look at everything thats going on, The President of our country is a JOKE and you both know it." - michaelpaternostro

*

Ah, yes...Obama will NEVER compare to that ol' silver-tongued "devil"...Lil' Dumbya...fortunately.

*

See:

Classic Bush - What Mistakes? (YouTube)

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 8:38 AM

My best friend owns a car wash, and I've seen what happens when a hose or fitting with a thousand pounds of pressure in it springs a leak. The pressures involved in gas drilling are much higher.

My friend doesn't screw around buying cheap hose and fittings. He buys hardware rated to handle pressures substantially higher that it will actually see, and still it inevitably leaks. Some of the hose he buys is steel reinforced, and still it leaks. I was buy once when he was cutting a piece of hose that he had to use an angle grinder to cut, which was to replace another piece of high pressure steel reinforced hose that leaked, and sprayed water all over his back room.

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MrShaman

Jun-21-13 8:33 AM

'Sorry but the Tea Party makes a mockery of itself.'

And just how do they do that Chuck? By standing up for individual rights, the 2nd Amendment, and low taxes?" - SteelerFan

*

I'm fairly-certain I've heard them "stand-up" for MANY-more phrases, than that!!

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 8:26 AM

" It is there to prevent any vertical migration of gas or fluid from one zone to another zone."

Would you say its a fair statement to say that a cement casement can only prevent vertical migration of material it can contain?

To prevent vertical migration, there first has to be no horizontal migration. A balloon can't really prevent migration of air outside of it.

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ToTEXASfromPA

Jun-21-13 8:25 AM

"Ever have a leak in your plumbing at your house? How often to you run SUPER high pressure water loaded with caustic chemicals and abrasive particles through your homes plumbing?"--CHayes

++

Now your comparisons are becoming unreasonable.

The plumbing in a home is commonly PVC/plastic, copper, or even in some older homes black steel pipe. On the waste water side, they are cast iron, chrome-plated steel, or PVC/plastic. They are designed for much lower pressures and temperatures and are much thinner. They are joined through glueing, soldering, threaded, slip in joints, etc that are less robust.

Pressures can get much, much higher (SUPER HIGH) in wells and that is why they design and use materials that can withstand those pressures. I suggest that you google "casing data internal yield pressure jsdrilling" or "tubing data internal yield pressure jsdrilling" and look at the tables to see the range of pressures that can be reached.

These are desig

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CHayes

Jun-21-13 8:19 AM

" The cement in the well annulus is not there to add strength to the steel. It is to fill the void space between the steel casing and the edges of the drilled hole. It is there to prevent any vertical migration of gas or fluid from one zone to another zone"

I know exactly why its there. And how exactly does cracked cement protect from migration of anything? Quite frankly, after finding out these pours are a mile long, and only one inch thick, its kind of amazing that only 5%-10% are cracked from day one.

And considering that with time, that percent rises, and that thin layer of cement is what is supposed to keep methane and toxic chemicals out of the aquafer, how can anyone with a wit of sense say gas drilling is "safe"?

You know Tex, theres a reason they don't make gaskets out of cement.

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