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The difference

June 24, 2013

Wanna know an easy way to know the difference between liberals and conservatives? Conservatives read 1984 (George Orwell) in high school and were scared by it....

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(145)

MrShaman

Jun-24-13 6:31 AM

"Wanna know an easy way to know the difference between liberals and conservatives?

Conservatives read 1984 (George Orwell) in high school and were scared by it. Liberals read 1984 and realized that these are great ideas!" - Vince Knauff

*

Keep your day-job. I wouldn't depend (too-heavily) on stand-up, to pay your bills.

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JerryfromRI

Jun-24-13 6:45 AM

I give this letter an "F".

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 7:06 AM

Count me in for an "F-". This "letter" IMO, makes the hall of shame for being one of the stupidest letters I've ever seen published by the newspaper.

So the party that brought us the Patriot Act the REAL ID Act, that was so ridiculously invasive that it was just essentially abandoned before implementation (something I have to say, I've NEVER seen happen to a federal law), indefinite detention, "enhanced interrogation techniques, and the Bush administration, was terrified by "1984"?

Really? Wow.

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rick424

Jun-24-13 7:09 AM

I read "1984" and thought it was a great piece of literature. I wonder if conservatives thought "Atlas Shrugged" was a story about trains.

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 7:11 AM

Apparently Vince missed this, which to my knowledge is the most extraordinary public testimony to Congress in the history of this country:

"If the President deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the test icles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?", to which Yoo replied "No treaty." Cassel followed up with "Also no law by Congress—that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo", to which Yoo replied "I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that."

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 7:13 AM

Also "interesting":

"Yoo also authored the October 23, 2001 memo asserting that the President had sufficient power to allow the NSA to monitor the communications of US citizens on US soil without a warrant (known as the warrantless wiretap program) because the Fourth Amendment does not apply. Or, as another memo says in a footnote, "Our office recently concluded that the Fourth Amendment had no application to domestic military operations.""

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nobud74

Jun-24-13 7:18 AM

I just can't understand why the left is so he ll bent on supporting, maintaining and expanding govt intrusion into our lives, and all just because they didn't start it. So, by that logic, anything that is initially supported and later determined to be indefensible should not be abolished, investigated, slowed or changed. That is incredible and a very weak stance.

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 7:35 AM

"I just can't understand why the left is so he ll bent on supporting, maintaining and expanding govt intrusion into our lives, and all just because they didn't start it."

That's not true at all nobud. As I pointed out below, the previous administration felt that it was perfectly justified to eavesdrop on the content of the communications of American citizens on American soil, without a warrant. I couldn't disagree more. The present administration has walked that back, and even put privacy protections in place for the communications of US citizens traveling abroad.

As far as phone, email, and internet metadata, I couldn't care less.

Not sure if you noticed, but an 8 year old was blown to bits in the streets of Boston a few weeks ago. If it might prevent that from happening again, the govt can have all the metadata they want. I'd gather my own metadata, and email it to them if they asked....

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 7:39 AM

But they still need a warrant to listen to my phone calls, or read my emails. I'm completely comfortable with that.

Possibly thats because I'm aware that everyone's metadata has been routinely mined, gathered, and collected by private companies for a LONG time now.

Metadata really isn't that invasive. Again, it's not any more invasive that what's on the outside of an envelope. And tens of millions of Americans have no problem handing letters to govt employees every day, and have literally been doing that for a couple centuries.

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 7:43 AM

I'm willing to support the collection of metadata IN SPITE of what the previous administration did, not because of it.

And while we're on that subject, I can't wrap my head around how so many people here that literally wrote letters to the paper supporting the warrantless wiretapping of American citizens a decade or less ago, have now turned over this new leaf, and are just aghast at the collection of MUCH less invasive data.

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philunderwood

Jun-24-13 7:44 AM

Again Chris and probably a few others take a topic about overreaching government and turn it into a Republican/Democrat or Bush started it thing. There’s just no end to the misdirection in an attempt to avoid the real discussion.

Good letter Vince.

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GysgtUSMC

Jun-24-13 7:45 AM

I asked this in a previous comment, but I'll ask it again. Why do the police need a search warrant to obtain phone records from a carrier that has this exact same data? And what right does our government have to use this same mining technique on innocent citizens of foreign countries? I know if I was a British or German citizen I would be outraged by the United State's arrogance.

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GysgtUSMC

Jun-24-13 7:54 AM

And before many come back and say the tireless response that Bush did it too, I really don't care. It didn't make it right and as far as the wire tapping, I'm quite sure these agency's had a cause to tap the phones they did in most cases. To think that the tapping was on the massive scale that this mining is, is really quite ridiculous. I served for the freedoms protected by the constitution, and it saddens me that after so many have died protecting these freedoms, we are willing to give up so much to feel safe. In my mind, the terrorist have won when this happens.

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MrShaman

Jun-24-13 8:24 AM

"I read "1984" and thought it was a great piece of literature. I wonder if conservatives thought "Atlas Shrugged" was a story about trains." - rick424

*

Seeing-as-how Ayn Rand was such a big fan o' terms like "useless parasites", it's much-more-likely "conservatives" would assume boxcars, instead.

*

See:

War on the Weak - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

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spike2

Jun-24-13 8:24 AM

I see Vince and a few others actually read "1984". This book was required in Comp and Lit for many of us. I'm not sure I was a liberal or a conservative in 11th grade. I like Vince's reference for discussion's sake.

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spike2

Jun-24-13 8:26 AM

Rick - I wonder how many actually read both these books? We should give Vince an A for completing the reading even if we disagree with analysis. At least he read the book!

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MrShaman

Jun-24-13 8:29 AM

"So, by that logic, anything that is initially supported and later determined to be indefensible should not be abolished, investigated, slowed or changed. That is incredible and a very weak stance." - nobud74

*

So....all-of-a-sudden....Change ISN'T a "dirty word", within Conservaworld??!!!

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JohnMBower

Jun-24-13 8:30 AM

Actually, the recent disclosures about the NSA is one are where both liberals and conservatives are in agreement.

Every American citizen, if they understand the issue, should be horrified with the government they have allowed to evolve.

If your lawmakers don't vow to end this and protect the constitution they swore to uphold and defend, they should be voted out, tarred and feathered.

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CMReeder

Jun-24-13 8:31 AM

LOL

Get a clue Vince! Conservaives don't read books unless it has lots of picture.

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MrShaman

Jun-24-13 8:33 AM

"And while we're on that subject, I can't wrap my head around how so many people here that literally wrote letters to the paper supporting the warrantless wiretapping of American citizens a decade or less ago, have now turned over this new leaf, and are just aghast at the collection of MUCH less invasive data." - CHayes

*

They surely do seem to be running from their insistence that Gridlock (in Congress) would be a pretty-good-idea, as well.

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MrShaman

Jun-24-13 8:41 AM

"Actually, the recent disclosures about the NSA is one are where both liberals and conservatives are in agreement.

Every American citizen, if they understand the issue, should be horrified with the government they have allowed to evolve.

If your lawmakers don't vow to end this and protect the constitution they swore to uphold and defend, they should be voted out, tarred and feathered." - JohnMBower

*

...After, which (if there's another attack), T-Baggers will once-again be able to complain about the weaknesses in our national-security. This, of course, will be dependent-upon WHEN these security-efforts are deep-sixed.

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 8:52 AM

Phil @ 7:44 "Again Chris and probably a few others take a topic about overreaching government and turn it into a Republican/Democrat or Bush started it thing."

Gysgt @ 7:54 "And before many come back and say the tireless response that Bush did it too, I really don't care."

Me @ 7:43 "I'm willing to support the collection of metadata IN SPITE of what the previous administration did, not because of it."

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 8:54 AM

"I asked this in a previous comment, but I'll ask it again. Why do the police need a search warrant to obtain phone records from a carrier that has this exact same data?"

Sorry Gysgt, I didn't notice your question. I'l be happy to answer.

The govt has a blanket warrant for the metadata they are collecting that needs to be renewed by the court every 3 months.

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CHayes

Jun-24-13 9:00 AM

And again, an EIGHT YEAR OLD CHILD was blown to pink mist in the streets of Boston a few weeks ago by two religious nutcase scumbags.

If collecting my the metadata of my calls, emails, and web browsing activity will help the govt prevent that from happening again, I'd pay to overnight it to them weekly if necessary.

It is NOT listening to my phone calls without a warrant. It is NOT reading my emails without a warrant.

The same information the govt is collecting has been collected by private companies from years to decades (depending on which metadata set you're talking about), for marketing purposes.

If that data can help protect our country and it's inhabitants, have at it.

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JohnMBower

Jun-24-13 9:04 AM

MrShaman, it was the Boston attack that helped bring about the disclosures, when it was revealed that our own spooks had the ability to go back and listen to the phone conversations between the bomber and his mother, conversations they weren't aware of at the time.

With a search warrant for a home, they have the ability to enter and see what's in the home at the time of the warrant being served. This is more like giving them a warrant to see everything that's ever happened in your house, every private moment, legal or not.

Our electronic communications are where we live now and they deserve even greater protections than ever before.

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