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Who succeeds more

July 29, 2013

Mr. Reeder asked for an example of where libertarian principles have been successfully applied....

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(54)

USABorn

Jul-30-13 3:33 AM

enigma - 8:15 PM

"Phil, You say you're not feuding with Chuck. When the two of you go back and forth in the letters to the editor, I call that a feud. Either way, when you argue with a fool, there's a good chance that he's doing the same thing."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....seems to me that everytime someone makes a comment, then another and another, they are doing the same thing. Enigma, you do it also. Guess we're all fools!

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CMReeder

Jul-30-13 12:22 AM

Enigma you do not know what you are talking about.

It is not a feud, no shots have been fired. It is a long standing disagreement over ideology. Unfortunately other people stir the pot and make it more than what it is.

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CMReeder

Jul-30-13 12:14 AM

"It's been going awhile, enigma. Phil posts to promote civil discussions and informed debate and are therefore mostly not directed at (or expected from) Chuck."

What a load of crap.

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enigma

Jul-29-13 8:15 PM

Phil, You say you're not feuding with Chuck. When the two of you go back and forth in the letters to the editor, I call that a feud. Either way, when you argue with a fool, there's a good chance that he's doing the same thing.

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enigma

Jul-29-13 8:11 PM

Chuck," Liberals still believe in free markets and free trade they no longer believe that it should be totally unrestrictive."

What part of free don't you understand? Liberals are all about government control of everything. That is the opposite of free.

Here's a little fact for you. The people are the market. Without a free market you cannot have free people. It really is just that simple.

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philunderwood

Jul-29-13 6:44 PM

KrazyK has the best post so far on this thread. I’ll only add that as individuals we simply need to decide if we want to move back in the direction of individual liberty or continue to move in the direction of government control.

Enigma, I’m not feuding with Chuck, he asked me a question and I answered it. I see nothing stupid about the kind of country we’re going to leave our descendants.

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Ritty77

Jul-29-13 6:34 PM

It's been going awhile, enigma. Phil posts to promote civil discussions and informed debate and are therefore mostly not directed at (or expected from) Chuck.

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enigma

Jul-29-13 5:38 PM

Is it just me or is anyone else tired of this feud between Phil and Chuck? It's like two blind guys arguing about a painting. At some point it doesn't matter which one you agree with, you have to admit that the argument is stupid.

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enigma

Jul-29-13 5:29 PM

Phil,"Pure Capitalism by definition is free of central planning."

Wrong. Capitalism and free markets are not the same thing. Free markets are Capitalist, but not all Capitalist systems are free markets. Government interference is the problem with out system now. We have a Capitalist system, but it hasn't been a free market in decades and it gets worse every year.

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CMReeder

Jul-29-13 1:56 PM

Liberals believed strongly in free markets and free trade, it is a strong component of liberal philosophy. Reality however has changed that belief. Liberals still believe in free markets and free trade they no longer believe that it should be totally unrestrictive. They found with unrestrictive free markets and free trade there is a real danger not only to a nation's economy but to individual freedoms as well.

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CarlHiller

Jul-29-13 1:55 PM

"Pure Capitalism by definition is free of central planning." That is not true, by its very definition capitalism requires central economic planning. From the Oxford dictionary - "an economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

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CHayes

Jul-29-13 1:29 PM

" Once government moves to central planning you no longer have a free market."

Again Phil, that simply isn't reality. There is not a single govt in the world that isn't involved in economic central planning to one degree or another. Not a single one. And by definition, a "free market" can be a single transaction between two individuals that is not controlled or regulated by the govt. Want to see a free market laboratory? Check.out Somolia, that has almost certainly the weakest central govt in the world.

If you want to play this black and white game, the only place a truly "free market" (by definition) can exist is in a place where there is no govt.

I couldn't possibly use strong enough terms encourage you to go to google, type in "free market definition" and hit enter.

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CMReeder

Jul-29-13 1:15 PM

I asked for a libertarian nation that is more successful than the US. I asked for a nation that uses only libertarian principles. Libertarianism is not just economics. What industrial western nation does not have central planning?

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CMReeder

Jul-29-13 1:11 PM

You did not give one. I asked for libertarian society.

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philunderwood

Jul-29-13 1:07 PM

Chris, we’re discussing economic principles here, not what any of us perceive is in existence at any time. Anyone with a little common sense should be able to understand that a free market requires the rule of law and the rule of law requires a strong government. Once government moves to central planning you no longer have a free market. All of that should be self-evident.

Chuck asked for an example of libertarian principles succeeding and I gave him one.

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KrazyK

Jul-29-13 1:07 PM

This country has always been part socialist and part capitalist. The balance is tilted one way or the other as different administrations assume power. Both sides predict doom when the other is in power. I'd say the system works well. Instead of arguing over naming a successful socialist country or a successful capitalist country, how about agreeing on just a successful country. My pick is the U.S.

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SteelerFan

Jul-29-13 1:06 PM

'If not, then I will probably accept your apology'

When donkeys fly.

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CMReeder

Jul-29-13 12:58 PM

In the US and other western industrial countries with capitsalism, public companies use central planning. The markets has a board of governors as do top corporations which are elected by select members of the corporation called 'shareholders'. It is central planning, the dreaded collectivist action you call corrupting and undesirable.

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CMReeder

Jul-29-13 12:41 PM

Capitalism is not free of central planning.

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CHayes

Jul-29-13 12:10 PM

And you creative definitions of things are only one of the problems I have with your letter.

You talk about "planned economies", and "free markets" like they actually exist in our world. ALL economies in the world are mixed economies that contain elements of free makers and elements of planned economies. Even freakin' N Korea, the most insane nation on earth, has an industrial zone it shares with the South.

You are essentially trying to take a Technicolor world, and wash it through a black and white printer. You can NEVER get the true picture that way. There's a reason they call it "dumbing it down".

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CHayes

Jul-29-13 12:01 PM

" No Chris, you’re wrong; a free market requires a strong but limited government and the rule of law to exist"

Really? Where did you get that definition? I suggest you try and google "free market definition".

Free market- An economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Note that the word "government" doesn't even come into play.

Again Phil, you seem to be trying to foist what YOU think "free market" means as the standard definition, and they are clearly two completely different things.

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philunderwood

Jul-29-13 11:58 AM

Pure Capitalism by definition is free of central planning. Government is limited to guaranteeing a free market and individual rights. I know that’s hard for collectivists to wrap their heads around, but a little research on economics might help.

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CMReeder

Jul-29-13 11:46 AM

"Any country with a government that engages in central planning will have an economic system that is to some degree socialist or fascist, but could be primarily capitalistic as is the case in many today."

So in your opinion any degree of collectivism is socialism and therefore not capitalism. Yet capitalism uses central planning.

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CMReeder

Jul-29-13 11:42 AM

"Economic systems aren’t in themselves social systems."

Yes they are. Where do you think socio-economics comes from? The economic system is part of the social system. In an economic system there is a socials system, a hierarchy, rules/laws/principles.

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philunderwood

Jul-29-13 11:24 AM

Side, I should’ve worded that better. An economic system can exist in countries with differing social beliefs and the social beliefs can have an effect upon which economic system the country has. Economic systems aren’t in themselves social systems. Any country with a government that engages in central planning will have an economic system that is to some degree socialist or fascist, but could be primarily capitalistic as is the case in many today.

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