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The “G” word

November 6, 2013

On Oct. 25, the Sun-Gazette ran an article (on page A-3) that Air Force Academy may drop the phrase “so help me God” from the oath their cadets take....

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(78)

rmiller

Nov-07-13 10:45 PM

AmericanCitizen,

"

AmericanCitizen

Nov-06-13 3:42 PM Agree | Disagree

Let's listen again:

"...you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all...All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."

My Christian friends, you assure me these are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Why then are you so determined to not only ignore Him (by swearing an oath) but to do it in the most blasphemous way possible (swearing the oath IN THE NAME OF GOD)?"

Not certain what Bible you are referencing, but your interpretation is completely wrong, but then, I'll go back to the corrupted text you are drawing from. That explains much. In addition, what Holy Spirit filled preacher did you get your info from?

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rmiller

Nov-07-13 10:42 PM

"Well Gavin, like I said, if we are going to totally remove any mention of God from every reference found within government, then let's abolish the Pledge of Allegiance, the Star Spangled Banner, the national motto, current U.S. currency and dozens of other references to God.

Not to dismiss the Ten Commandments sitting over the heads of the SCOTUS, other public grounds such as national cemeteries, courthouses, etc. If you don't believe in God, what's the problem?

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rmiller

Nov-07-13 10:37 PM

Freedom OF - not Freedom FROM

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rmiller

Nov-07-13 10:36 PM

JohnZ,

Remember the words, "We are not a Christian nation."

Obama has been and continues to be a muslim sympathizer and anyone who differs with that truth has their head buried in the sand.

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rmiller

Nov-07-13 10:34 PM

We won't be here (The Church) when God unleashes His wrath on the world, not just the USA. But, He never promised we wouldn't go through persecution.....just ask any Christian who dares to speak about Jesus Christ in countries that are predominantly Islam. There are people dying for Christ in other countries too, but Islam is the major executioner of Christians around the world.

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rmiller

Nov-07-13 10:28 PM

Your statement is FALSE!

Pay a visit to our local Courthouse and listen to the current swearing in of witnesses - "Do you swear, affirm, or avow - that you will tell the truth to the best of your information, knowledge and belief?"

Come to think of it John, the witnesses representing the multimillion dollar failed website didn't have to say "So help me God." I'm betting they slept better knowing that they didn't.

Ahhh...the war on Christianity....the one liberals say doesn't exist. Not to worry, God is a gentleman and He is withdrawing His hand from America. Once, gone.....

Truthfully libs? I'm thrilled to know that the separation of church and state exist, because our budget balances and we have (thus far) the right to preach against abortion and homosexuality, immorality of all kinds, sexual perversion, and a host of sins that God hates.

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JohnHilfirty

Nov-07-13 7:09 PM

continued >

You stated: "... is used in everything from ..."

That is simply false!

The subject of separation of church and state is hardly a new one. I recall a Philadelphia rookie fireman refusing to repeat an offensive oath in the late 60's and fired him.

He filed a suit in Federal Court, of course, he won reinstatement with all back pay and benefits, costing Philly's taxpayers more than $140,000.

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JohnHilfirty

Nov-07-13 6:42 PM

Capricorn1 @ Nov-06-13 6:00 AM

"So help me God" is used in everything from the presidential oath to the oath for citizenship and it is estimated that over 90% of Americans believe in "God"." - Capricorn1

-

Your statement is FALSE!

Pay a visit to our local Courthouse and listen to the current swearing in of witnesses - "Do you swear, affirm, or avow - that you will tell the truth to the best of your information, knowledge and belief?"

You stated: "... is used in everything from

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JohnZook

Nov-07-13 11:01 AM

Forty- The Constitution says ,"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". What part of freedom of religion don't you understand? Now, why are kids sent home with God on their shirts? Congress has established no religion, yet our free exercise thereof is being abated. It didn't say free exercise in church only, or at home only, or in underground hovels only. Yet, Muslims can have foot washing rooms, prayer time, the Five Pillars of Islam on school hallways walls. Where is the Teachers Union removing these benefits for "other than Christian or Jewish" religions?

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ToTEXASfromPA

Nov-07-13 6:27 AM

Mike, thank you.

I read a lot more on the subject last night and there were a large-large range of comments by biblical scholars and teachers over the past 20 centuries.

After this I still agree with what I said but there may be some caveats. If a society/government insists their citizens make an oath or pledge when duties require, that the prepositions/phrases that accompany an oath provide freedom of conscience for the Christian, for instance "with God's help" instead of "on the name of God". Also to "make" and oath (self generated to convince others) is different from "take" an oath (where something is required by society).

Again Jesus was telling Christians to just say "yes" or "no" instead of making an elaborate declaration (which was common in Israel) to give the impression (that many times was not followed through on) that they would fulfill their words.

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mikekerstetter

Nov-07-13 3:46 AM

ToTex, my first thought was 'another exclusion on Christianity'. Then I read you post. You're correct, we're not supposed to swear an oath 'by God' or anything else. Thanks for that reminder.

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DavidBross

Nov-06-13 9:39 PM

Erik said, "I thought I asked specifically about "this oath" and for someone to show me how "this oath" has harmed anyone." Actually Erik what you said was, "I ask again for someone to step forward and demonstrate the harm created by words." Had you said something like "created by the words" or "created by the words in the oath" your meaning would have been much clearer. I read what you wrote quite accurately.

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gavinf56

Nov-06-13 8:35 PM

Ritty, I agree.

Yep, understand Cap. Personally, I am not offended by the reference at all. Being a weak agnostic it means nothing to me.

Enjoy your night.

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Capricorn1

Nov-06-13 8:07 PM

It's been nice debating with you Gavin and I hope you have a good night.

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Capricorn1

Nov-06-13 8:01 PM

Other than the National Anthem (which doesn't mention God until the 4th verse), I wouldn't be fully opposed to any of those. -Gavin

Sorry Gavin, but you can't have it both ways. The Star Spangled Banner clearly mentions God in the 4th verse and also should be abolished as our national anthem. If we are going to interpret the separation of church and state as any mention of God with the confines of government, then it needs to be without exception.

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Ritty77

Nov-06-13 7:49 PM

Invoking God in oaths, civic meetings, sporting events, etc. seems more of a tradition that an actual belief. Probably shouldn't do it, though, and those that are offended by the belief or the constitutional aspect shouldn't expect sudden changes to the tradition.

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gavinf56

Nov-06-13 7:38 PM

Other than the National Anthem (which doesn't mention God until the 4th verse), I wouldn't be fully opposed to any of those.

One thing we need to understand, our freedoms are just that, freedoms. We cannot pick and choose which ones to restrict or trample by our own personal beliefs. I don't care if it's the right to bear arms, the right to privacy, the right to free speech, or our right to not have our Government sponsor a particular religion.

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FortySixand2

Nov-06-13 7:33 PM

Wow, some strange alliances may be afoot throughout this thread. I liked and agreed to posts by Gavin and Leaning and Underwood. John Zook, no one is claiming an act of Congress was enacted, so it seems bazaar you insist on someone providing it. And the fact it(God) is on currency, etc....well it's sort of unnecessary and mildly unconstitutional, but no one is being forced to swear an oath. I view these things as being passive aggressive in nature...the fact they were ever put there to begin with, like in the Pledge (under God), was to be a mild coercive action in favor of supporting the Christian concept of God. And then those same people get to claim the mantle of victims of religious persecution when others try and uphold the 1st Amendment.

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Capricorn1

Nov-06-13 7:07 PM

Well Gavin, like I said, if we are going to totally remove any mention of God from every reference found within government, then let's abolish the Pledge of Allegiance, the Star Spangled Banner, the national motto, current U.S. currency and dozens of other references to God.

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gavinf56

Nov-06-13 6:53 PM

It is chapter 6 starting on page 86. The book as a whole is a really good read on Andrew Jackson's life, but this chapter gives some good history on the long battle by Christians to make our Government an endorser of Christianity.

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gavinf56

Nov-06-13 6:49 PM

In the early 1800's Presbyterian minister Ezra Stiles Ely, a close friend of Andrew Jackson, calling for a Christian Party, wrote "Every ruler should be an avowed and sincere friend of Christianity. He should know and believe the doctrines of our holy religion, and act in conformity to its precepts."

President Jackson replied "Amongst the greatest blessings secured to us under our Constitution,is the liberty of worshipping God as our conscience dictates."

From the book, American Lion by Jon Meacham

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gavinf56

Nov-06-13 6:30 PM

Nope, I wouldn't have a problem with them praying in that particular situation. They would be doing it with their own free will, not by Government coercion.

As far as comparing it to slavery and other civil rights. A right is a right, and we have the right to not have our Government force a religion upon us. The religion we choose is our freedom to choose.

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Capricorn1

Nov-06-13 6:24 PM

I find it sad that in the age of political correctness that we actually compare slavery and other civil rights violations to the right of our troops to swear an oath to their God as well as their country. I'm glad I'm no longer a part of our liberal infused military and I feel sorry for those that are.

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Capricorn1

Nov-06-13 6:19 PM

How many of you would condemn a squad of American troops caught in a fire fight and joining together to ask God for the strength and the courage to get them out alive. It happens to our young men and women on a regular basis in the theater of war that our elected officials send them to. The majority of those troops hang on to the belief that God will help them keep them safe. I find it sad that in the age of political correctness that we actually compare slavery and other civil rights violations to the right of our

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underwood

Nov-06-13 4:06 PM

What I meant was that an oath based upon religion only has meaning to members of the religion. An oath to protect the country and/or to abide by the Constitution has meaning to all Americans.

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